M.E.L./ F.E. interchange. anyone done one?

Hey Gang. So, I am having this bad idea, and am wondering who has tried it before to figure out just how bad of an idea it really is.

THE CAR. 1964 Lincoln Continental convertible.
THE MOTOR. a worn out 1964 Lincoln 430
THE PROBLEM.

So, this motor (and trans) is worn out. not just a little worn out, but alot worn out. The owner would also like a little more " oomph " if possible. after doin a moment or so's digging, I reached the conclusion that while these motors are "just fine" in their stock format, they are weak-suck in the power department, and there is simply little to no performance parts avalible for them. what to do?....

THE PLAN.

generally, my response would be to shoehorn the largest displacement engine I could round up in there...like a 572 chevy with a 4l80e, or some nightmare caddy engine that makes 800 ft.lbs of torque at Idle. however, call it boredom or old age, I want to do a big stroker F.E. like a BIG stroker F.E. and there is rather unexpectedly a large number of performance partsd avalible for those, and they have blue ovals stamped on them, so that's the bell ringer, I guess....

WHAT I KNOW.
The plan calls for an overdrive transmission. I know ford o.d.'s don't bolt up to an f.e. but I know that there is an adapter out there somewhere to make that happen. who makes it?

WHAT I DON'T KNOW.
mounting points are a bit of a concern. does anyone out there have a tech drawing or specs on f.e. v.s. m.e.l.? I am sure that there will be some mods required to sit big pig a into the slot previously occupied by big pig b, but just how much whittling am I about to do?

WHAT I KNOW I KNOW.
this motor will quite likely be based on a set of edelbrock or dove heads, a good 4 barrel or multi carb set up, and mabey (i hope) an aluminum block. this should tear a ton of weight off the car (close to 500 pounds, to the best of my research)and belts and pulleys are really, really easy at that point.
WHAT I KNOW I DON'T KNOW.
The power steering pump on the m.e.l. is run from the crankshaft. it also employs about 15 feet of high pressure hose, and runs oddballs like the windshield wipers. does anyone have any idea what kind of pressure and volume it puts out? will a "standard issue" ford "whine-o-matic" p.s. pump do the job? will the capacity of the standard issue resivoir be enough once the lines are filled? should I run a cooler (ala cadillac) to keep from burning the fluid every time it turns from left to right in the rain?
the rear end under this car is a dana derivative. who makes gears for it? the idea is to make this road boat get out of it's own way in evil austin traffic and still be able to cruise with the aid of overdrive.
does anyone make a disc conversion for this monster that doesn't suck?
(honestly, the brakes are probably up to the task, as the drums look like you could farm catfish in them if the were turned upside down and filled with water, but hey...if it is gonna GO, it would be nice to know it's also gonna WOAH.)

here is where My good people come into the equasion...for all of you to tell me what else I don't know.....and what I should!

thanks a zillion!
Lux

 

Well as far as fitting the FE into the place of a MEL . I know that the FE shares the motor mounts with the Y-block , so I would be willing to bet the MEL which are cousins to the Y are the same . This means that it should be a bolt in affair.

Instead of using the AOD trans why not a C6 with a gear vendors overdrive .

 

I'm not sure the Lincoln 430 is the same as a 1960 T-Bird 430 but the T-Bird could be purchased with either a 430 or an FE. I've worked on 60's with a 430 and alot of Square Birds with FE's. but never thought of comparing engine mounts.

Movin/on

 

honestly, i tried a gear vendor once, and it left me hating it. number 1, it vibrated like crazy. number 2, it was freakin huge. and number 3, changing the oil in it was a pain in the ass.

if the block we will be using comes double drilled...which alot of them do, for using a powerglide...i may go 700r4.

 

that's what I'm thinking...shouldn't be a whole lot of drama involved.

well, except that I think we landed on a solid motor choice today. We are going to start with an aluminum Pond side oiler block and stroke it to 496. cam it for tourque, and swing for the fences. the other opton is a cammer made by dove, but that may be a little overkill...not to mention hard to stuff under the hood. ( those valve covers look like they would get in the way of..everything. but it sure would be easy to change spark plugs!)

 

I know of a guy working on changing from a 430 MEL in a 60 TBird over to a 390 FE, and he was looking for the FE motor mounts from a squarebird, so I would assume based on that, the MEL and the FE don't crossover.

You may go and check over on the squarebirds.org forum and see what they have done over there about the conversion, safe bet someone over there has done it.

Cheers
RustyNCA

 

What are you thinking about? I would figure a modern 385 series engine B&S'd out to 514"s would be great here AND it's a blue oval too.

Otherwise, I would beat the bushes for a 462" MEL and then really do my homework and hop it up. Look to Offy and ebay for an intake as well as ask UDHarold to spec a great street, (read, powerful), cam for you. Cam may have to be a regrind on your 462's core? Then find a header company that will build a set of needed sized 4-tube, long tube, headers here. Remember cubic inches alone will make it powerful.

Damn Ford big truck 534" MEL is way too big and heavy or I'd tell you to hunt onna them up.. I wanna say 1100 pounds BIG here!!!

Imho, these old engines are like the big 472/500 Cad's, you don't need to rpm them because they are torque monsters so gear and tire accordingly.

Tranny, adapt a built 200-4R or whatever it's called behind whatever engine you settle on and go. The real Art Carr should be able to make it live at 800 T if not mistaken, but it will be pricey. Bruce and Jakeshoe should be able to help here too.

pdq67

 

Quick Time might make the adaptor you are looking for.

 

Didn't Ford put a 460 in these cars in 68?

 

Ford put a 460 in these later, but the exhaust manifolds were RIDICULOUS and had to hug the head and the intake was shorter. Plus the steering box is totally in the way.. Putting a built 460 in an early Conti is QUITE a challenge.

 

You will need and engine with a front sum oil pan if you want this to work. To get typical GM engine in that bay, you'd have to significantly modify the cross member, and the steering. Modifying the steering is not for the faint of the heart. You have to fab a drop pitman arm, make a dropped drag link and modify the spindles to move the whole deal down to clear.

My advice, don't. I am still dialing out the bump steer on this car.

You rear axle is a Dana 53, and there is no aftermarket support for it. You will be best off swapping a truck Dana 60. You can find one with a width that is close enough, and with the same bolt pattern.

 

trans adapters:
http://www.transmissionadapters.com/ford_fe.htm

 

ha! we were talking about diesel power for this car. Curt and I laughed and both said "I bet that would end up being harder than it looks...."

 

awesome. thank you.

 

Yeah. the 385 series was top on the list...until we realized they pretty much don't fit for kaka in these cars.

besides...tri power low rise side oiler bumped and ground to 496? what's not to love?

 

Lux-

In addition to Bendtsen, WilCap also makes a Chevy-pattern adapter which would allow the 700R4, which would probably be my choice, looking at case size, costs, length, strength, etc.

I have seen regular FoMoCo PS pumps adapted to that system and so far as I am aware there were no problems. You could probably use a late model remote PS reservoir if necessary.

The low hood line on these cars always has to be kept in mind when doing any sort of swap.

There is a way to put discs on these things, but I've forgotten the source and will have to think about even where to look. I have CRS these days.

 

How much power are you looking to make?

Just so you know some 460's had a crank driven Power Steering pump, takes a special timing cover to make it work but not so hard to find.

a 390 with a 4.250 crank will give you an easy 500hp. Really depends on the HP wanted for which is best combo. (FE) Much lighter than a 460 too

 

that's why we are going with the aluminum block and heads...light,light,light.

The pond block will accept notching, and eagle makes a monster stroke crank. we are shooting for around the 600 mark, but want the torque numbers to be really, really high. a properly ground roller camshaft should accomplish that with ease.

not really too worried about the p/s pump. the pressures are actually pretty easily adjusted. had no idea until I went into research phase...it's all about the output orifice size....who knew you could hot rod a power steering pump?

should be pretty rowdy.

 

All aluminum should be well under 500lbs.

Are you going with a Pond, Genesis or Shelby block?

When I started my build there was not a Aluminum block in stock anywhere and was a wait so went with Iron instead. It was around 100-120lbs more than the Aluminum version. I am sure mine will be making north of 600lb ft in the Torque department...

What heads etc are you going with?

 

we will be using the pond heads and block. crank and rods from eagle, and we found a place that makes a tri power set up that looks pretty nice. I figure 3 550 holleys should feed it pretty nice. we are also gonna pitch on a bunch of cast finned stuff, and have as much of it polished as we can stand to look at.
got the deposit on the motor today...430 is on it's way out.

 

I put a 460 with a C6 in Whitneyes '64 Lincoln Convertible. Its a fairly easy swap, the stock exhaust fits "after" you widen the frame 1 1/2" on each side. The oil pan(front sump) fits tight and steering box is out of the way. You will have to be creative with the motor mounts. A low rise intake and super thin air filter will finish it off nicely.

I am still a believer that a high horsepower motor in these heavy cars is like pissing in the wind. Bragging rights dont even matter, after all, its about luxury and cruising.

-Jason

 

Years ago, I had a '58 Mercury 2-door hardtop wagon that I did a few changes to in order to use it as a tow vehicle. I removed the frozen 383 [destroked 430] from the Merc, picked up a '65 390 FE from a '65 Merc, overhauled and upgraded the engine and rebuilt the push-button trans that was in the '58 Merc. The bellhousing pattern was the same on the early MEL as the FE. Torque converter cinched up fine too. The only changes I had to do was to cut mount perches from a '64 Galaxie for the 390, as it uses side mounts, and the early MEL mounted towards the front. Also, custom power steering hoses had to be made, as the MEL used a crankshaft driven power steering pump, and I was using the external pump from the '65 Merc.

I towed over 200 cars into the yard with this rig, parts were easy to come by in case of a breakdown, and it towed up mountain grades very well for a gas powered engine. I sold the car to someone in Southern Ca. about ten years back, and it's still being driven.

---John

 

Can I get the old MEL? I'd like to have one someday.....

 

Did you have any trouble with transmission clearance at the firewall? How much metal work is required to the car itself?

 

One thing to lookout for when switching from an early trans (auto) to a
C-6. Did that on my son's 59 T-bird & had less than 1/2 inch clearance from the larger trans torque convertor "cover" to the firewall. The C-6 needed a different trans mount but was within 1" longer. In hindsight I would have moved the engine forward 1" and had more room to fab headers.

Thats now water over the dam-under the bridge, or whatever that friggin phrase is.....

Movin/on

 

http://www.thelincolnforum.net/phpbb3/

 

1968 Lincolins had both, Mels until mid year and then the 460 Yes in the same car. The 68 & 69 lincolins had crank driven power stearing on the 460's. On another note they had a C6 with the angle shaped belhousing which fits both the 460 & the 462 Mel. If anybody needs one I have a very nice rebuilt one.

 

I agree. that's why we are building this motor for torque. and with the block, trans, heads and intake all being aluminum, I figure it will be about 500 lbs lighter, so cruising in luxury will be that much easier. and we can still run piss water gasoline with no issues. but I see your point.

the bling factor is an issue as well. serious considerations are being made toward polishing it. well, the considerations are "do we polish the whole damn thing, or just the top end?"

made some quick measurements today. we have a 62 t-bird in the shop...the F.E. is surprisingly smaller..not by much, but smaller nonetheless.

sourced and ordered a loaded tri-power today. some bitchin original (no script) cobra finned valve covers, too. anyone have a source on a holman/moody tri power air cleaner? they had a low rise one for boats, that as I recall, was a beauty to behold....

 

Uh...I am not sure what the owner wants to do with it, but I know this. if you are gonna drive it from Texas to Florida...bring a lot of tie downs, and install some overload bags on your truck. we put this pig on our most kick ass engine stand, and it was displeased at our decision, to say the least. poor thing looks like it could use some viagra!

 

*update*
The block finally got here last week!!!!
"4 to 6 weeks" turned out to be more like 14-16 weeks. however, it's about the prettiest damn thing I have ever seen.
I used a plastic mock up block in the meantime, and procured a lan-tech a.o.d. rated to a paltry 1000 ft.lbs of torque.
The Currie rear end awaits it's mock up on Monday.
headers are built and await coating.
the numerous chassis mods are getting close to wrapping up- including a new Flaming River rack and pinion.
Tri power is built and on the mock-up block. looks like I may have to do some work on the hood. I'm thinging same era t-bird scoop.
mega duty skidplate is built.
this thing is gonna rule.
pics on monday! (I forgot my camera. d'oh!)