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Let's make some bucks

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Rand Man, Oct 6, 2004.

  1. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,472

    Rand Man
    Member

    I would like to create a Model A Ford beltline like the one in the attached photo. I don't think it is available as a repro part (is it?). I'm thinking one way would be to create a mold (buck) from an original part in the same way you would make a fiberglass mold. I think this is the way companies like Brookville and Dearborn Duce did it. Does anyone know of a commercial product for this purpose? Do you know of metallic body filler tough enough to hammer-on?
     
  2. james
    Joined: May 18, 2001
    Posts: 1,064

    james
    Member

    The best way would be a set of dies and find someone to stamp it. There are no metal fillers like that, and I doubt many people would want one out of glass'.
     
  3. trey
    Joined: Sep 11, 2003
    Posts: 1,219

    trey
    Member

    i could make some pullmax dies, but id need to know what they look like. i made dies to do the beltline on my dodge. kinda fun to do.

    trey
     
  4. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,472

    Rand Man
    Member

    I guess I lost the photo. I want to learn to do this myself. I've been a sheetmetal man for years, but I'm the HVAC kind.
     

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  5. fab32
    Joined: May 14, 2002
    Posts: 13,987

    fab32
    Member Emeritus

    Brookville and many others that do steel reproduction pieces make the parts using male/female dies just like they did when new. It involves digitally scanning a perfect part, generating a computer profile and feeding that profile into CNC milling equipment which cuts massive pieces of die steel into dies for stamping. It's a VERY expensive process and is reflected in the price of the finished product.

    Frank
     
  6. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 8,226

    manyolcars

    I think a bead roller would be the best way. Just get a machine shop to make the rollers and get a Harbor Freight bead roller
     
  7. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,472

    Rand Man
    Member

    I know there is a plasic-type product for making low production dies. I will have to research it myself.
     
  8. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,141

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Kirksite is cheaper and easier to make dies from than steel. But it doesn't last near as long. I think it is molded off a nice original part, but that's as much as I know.

    I think Dearborn Deuce uses Kirksite dies, and maybe Brookville too. I have heard that some of the Model A dies that Brookville uses now are the second or third sets they have had to make. They have worn out the others.


    - alchemy

     
  9. Making Kirksite dies isn't terribbly difficult,but then you need a BIG press to stamp your parts.
     
  10. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,472

    Rand Man
    Member

    I'm pretty sure a lot of the repro stuff is made from temporary dies. Real, machined dies are extremely expensive.
     
  11. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,472

    Rand Man
    Member

    I have access to a big press. Tell me more about Kirksite. I got set up on metalshapers but I haven't found anything yet.
     
  12. Plowboy
    Joined: Nov 8, 2002
    Posts: 4,255

    Plowboy
    Member

    This thing was built entirely with a Pullmax for the lines and an english wheel for the curved panels by Kerry Hopperstad (Bottle) and his helper (I can't remember his name) in Belvedere, IL.

    Pullmaxes rule if you can A) afford one and B) dedicate that much garage space to one.

    He made his own dies. You can use mild steel if you are just going to do your own short run. They just won't last long enough to build your buddies car too.
     
  13. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,472

    Rand Man
    Member

    I believe Pullmax makes a lot of different models. Do you mean a pressbrake or a roller?
     
  14. Brickster
    Joined: Nov 23, 2003
    Posts: 1,131

    Brickster
    Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    I believe Pullmax makes a lot of different models. Do you mean a pressbrake or a roller?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    actually it's a nibbler. As in a recipricating motion but you can set up tooling to do almost anything. Shrinking, form beads of any size, planish, nibble, shear, make louvers, turn flanges, they are great. The down side is they can be expensive, very large and hard to move.
     
  15. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,472

    Rand Man
    Member

    Plowboy,
    Does the beltline in your photo curve up like a Phaeton or the backside of a Sedan? If it just wraps around the back, I could duplicate that with a shrinker.
     
  16. Plowboy
    Joined: Nov 8, 2002
    Posts: 4,255

    Plowboy
    Member

    It actually curves up. He made a die of the belt line and then used a guide fence, I believe, to keep it straight. He just did the strip with the pullmax then welded that to the bigger chunk that was formed with the e-wheel (I think that is what he told me)that forms the back panel. Note that the lines do not change in width or thickness like a 30/31 model a does though.
     
  17. Plowboy: Have you got any more pics of that car ?
     
  18. oldspeed
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 897

    oldspeed
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    As far as plastc dies, I am not sure but. there is a process that takes one half of the die (the male part) and uses a hard rubber on the bottom for the female half. The material flows into the rubber die from the pressure of the top die. It still expensive because you need to create the top die from steel. CNC machining after programing the shape for a pattern or a digital scan.
     
  19. Plowboy
    Joined: Nov 8, 2002
    Posts: 4,255

    Plowboy
    Member

    Unkl, I posted some a while back, but I will show a couple more. It was also in a lttle blurb in the back of rod and custom several months ago.
     
  20. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,472

    Rand Man
    Member

    I can make an add-on beltline strip like that for a '28-29 style. Looks good. Thanks.
     
  21. Plowboy
    Joined: Nov 8, 2002
    Posts: 4,255

    Plowboy
    Member

  22. adzslick
    Joined: Jun 7, 2004
    Posts: 12

    adzslick

    Not sure, but if you have an E Wheel couldnt you machine make and female wheels what replicate what the curve of the beltline, thus just feeding metal into it slowly tightening would roll out the pattern you want? is this correct or am i totally wrong?
     
  23. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,472

    Rand Man
    Member

    Yes you could do that with a steady hand. That beltline curves up as it curves around. The factory part has a crisp line it would be very hard to reproduce on a roller in one step.

    I plan to start experimenting with a KIRKSITE or some similar material for a stamped part. Until I can get that done I will try a flat molding like the '28 style. I can cut the part out then roll each side over on a tool I have called an Easy Edger. It rolls a 1/4" lip on sheet metal. I will attach this molding on top of the new quarter panel end.
     
  24. ray
    Joined: Jun 25, 2001
    Posts: 3,756

    ray
    Member

    don't forget too, if you were to take a mold, or digitize the old surface or whatever for a die, that when you work the metal into shape, you need to work it PAST its final shape, to allow it to spring back, so you deed your dies to be slightly deeper than the actual bodyline.
     
  25. Deuce Rails
    Joined: Feb 1, 2002
    Posts: 2,016

    Deuce Rails
    Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    I would like to create a Model A Ford beltline like the one in the attached photo... I'm thinking one way would be to create a mold (buck) from an original part in the same way you would make a fiberglass mold.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    What you're looking to make is technically called a hammerform, not a buck. That may help you in searching on metalshapers.org.

    You definitely could make one out of fiberglass. You would have to make it quite thick, or reinforce it with something, in order to make it strong enough to hammer into.
     
  26. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,472

    Rand Man
    Member

    Thanks for the correction. My idea was to carve a block of wood close to the basic shape. A coating (1/2” or less?) of “kitty hair” body filler or something like “liquid steel should take the shape of the beltline fairly well. My goal is to make one pair not to manufacture them. That would be cool though.

    As for hammer forms in general, would a mold of the original part work as a female form (hammering down into it)? Should you make a male part form your mold and hammer on that? I’m focusing on just the beltline molding, not the whole quarter panel.
     
  27. Hammerforming demo:
    http://www.heritagesonline.homestead.com/metalworking.html

    That's an intricate little detail to make in one piece.
    But I'm sure it's possible.

    If you consider the groove between the 2 beads to be the centerline of the part,
    then the material has to move in from the top AND bottom as the part is formed.

    It would probably be easier to clamp the top in position,
    and form the lower groove as close as possible.
    Then clamp the bottom and form the top.

    You could post this question on the Metalshapers board.
    I'm sure there are several other ways to do this.
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/metalshapers/
     
  28. Deuce Rails
    Joined: Feb 1, 2002
    Posts: 2,016

    Deuce Rails
    Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    My idea was to carve a block of wood close to the basic shape. A coating (1/2” or less?) of “kitty hair” body filler or something like “liquid steel should take the shape of the beltline fairly well. My goal is to make one pair not to manufacture them. That would be cool though.

    As for hammer forms in general, would a mold of the original part work as a female form (hammering down into it)? Should you make a male part form your mold and hammer on that? I’m focusing on just the beltline molding, not the whole quarter panel.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Better than a block of wood would be several sheets of MDF wood glued together. MDF is readily available at places like Home Depot. It's very dimensionally stable, and routs and sands really well. It will even keep a pretty well defined body contour.

    Here's the secret to hammerforming into MDF: coat the mold you've made with the same kind of polyester resin and hardener that you would use with fiberglass. You'll get a very nice, very hard surface to work on.

    You'll definitely want to make a female mold or die. When pounding metal, you can only shrink or stretch it. I don't see any practical way that you could use a male hammerform, because that would require shrinking.

    If, however, you were to clamp the sheetmetal to a female hammerform, you would simply pound away until the sheet met the entire concave surface--stretching the metal.

    Ron Covel and Ron Fournier made a very nice video on making bucks and hammerforms. You might want to get a copy at www.covell.biz.

    Good luck!

    --Matt
     

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