Technical Lacquer Paint Questionnaire

One of my paint stores in Birmingham said that back when he started his paint store, rm factory pack nitro lacquer was $1.25 qt his cost. The empty metal cans alone cost that now.

 

I'm nobody's pro painter. I've shot a bunch of motorbike parts and one complete car but i've only ever shot Auto Air Colors for a handful of reasons. I really want to shoot this next build in lacquer but california makes everything more difficult. if you can get a good product up and running i'll gladly go in for my car. I know an empty promise on a gallon of paint aint much but i have a feeling there are a lot of guy in my shoes who would probably go the same route if the word was out.'

this thread has been super informative and has answered a bunch of questions i didn't even know to ask.
Thanks for all the effort and input.

 

Just a fyi to everyone wanting a sample of this black lacquer, this is for testing only, do not put on your vehicle, it needs to be tested on scrap metal or a old junk fender etc. There could be something missing out of our formula and I would hate for something to go bad. This first sample is our starting point, we know it has to be tweaked or possibly start all over. It could buff horrible or gum up paper bad etc. I personally think it has too much pigment in this first batch, but like I said if you want a sample pm me with your information. Thanks.

 

Whats happening with this? Are we waiting on the test results from the samples at this stage?

 

Last year I sold 2 gallons of Acrylic Lacquer, 1 Plum Crazy and the other dark blue metallic.
Maybe I shoulda kept it, but have not seen various speed lacquer thinners, in a while

 

Painted my Avatar truck and a 47 Chrysler and a few other cars, trailers etc the last 5 years.
Falcon George will laugh at this one, the truck, Home Hardware Rust Coat enamel, custom tinted, cut with xylene, and about 10% Evercoat DOI acrylic enamel hardener. I shot on 3 coats back to back, very short flash as the shop was quite warm and the air was moving well. This paint is a modified alkyd (synthetic enamel) with a hardener, dries and cures at a much faster rate, pot life is good and long so no need to rush.
Conventional gravity gun with a 1.5 tip, and about 45-50 psi.
The 47 Chrysler I used International Paint Alkyd Enamel, with Medium speed acrylic enamel reducer, and DOI hardener. Both paint jobs came off okay for a real greenhorn, and have survived quite well, very hard once this paint is good and cured.
On another board, in the autobody section, I damn near got lynched for my methods, they ran me off that's for sure, as I threatened their way of doing things.

 

Well we are waiting on our resin supplier for the sandable low voc lacquer resin. I got samples of black but they have a brownish tint to it and I didn't want to send out for samples. Also I didn't have anyone to give address to actually test on junk panels etc. However if you want to test the brownish black just pm me with address and I will send out.

 

Duplicolor is based on Lacquer ,the lead removal may contribute to the brown tint the 1st coat is apparent usually the second coat covers well ,when Lacquer was readily available ,I had a truck in the 80s painted Black lacquer with a gallon of clear you could not beat the shine and clarity only one problem, when it rain I have water droplet stains that was actually acid rain etching the finish it would buff out ,do i want to continue buffing after every rain? then came Urethane clear formulated to go over Lacquer

 

I am interested in the blue black not the liquorice black , love to test it when you can supply it

 

Lead has nothing to do with the brown cast, its just not processed enough I think, we are going to grind the pigment more and see what we get. Now this lacquer will have a harder film and will not stain like that. I have used a pump sprayer with this black and it flowed out like glass, so sprayability wise its awesome, empty a Windex bottle and use that to paint your parts lol

 

I heard that the old Lacquer paints could be sprayed with a Windex bottle, with excellent results. I've also about spraying a white basecoat to make the color "pop". Any truth to that??

 

I am unclear about what you do with the white base. Spray it first before you put color on? I can see where that could be somewhat true only because you don't have full opacity.

 

Exactly! First the white is sprayed and then the color. That's what I've always heard about painting with Lacquer.

 

There isn't a actual pop like a candy or metallic would do, its more of the coating being lighter in appearance due to a insufficient amount of color being applied and the coating is basically translucent.
I want full coverage when I paint. Do you remember all the paint recalls in the 90's? Some of those paint failures were due to a insufficient amount of paint on the substrate.

 

The main place I have heard of the white base to make the colour pop was when shooting pearls. Like if you are painting a car pearl orange, you can shoot it over a white base. Never tried it myself, just something I was told, FWIW

 

The key with lacquer is to use a base coat that compliments your top coat, one thing to remember as I was told by an old timer a long time ago is that even the solid colors are semi translucent and your base effects the overall out come of the finished job. I learned a lot from that fella and to this day I even shoot black over black or charcoal primer.

 

I kinda sorta lied actually. I have shot pearl lacquer (nail polish) over a white base, I did it on models when I was a teenager. It did seem to make pearls pop a little more, I dont know if "pop" is the right word, it gave them more intensity might be a good way to describe it. Shooting the same colour over a gold or copper base looked "warmer", and gave more depth.

 

No personal experience on this and a bit OT, but back in the late 70's? (crs), I was told that the reason the Porsche Guards Red had such a distinctive look about it was due to the use of a white base, I'm sure the experts will blow this theory out of the water in about 1 2 3.

 

There is a lot of experimentation with different bases that goes on and the theory is proven over and over again.

I was looking at a '57 Ford that a couple of weeks ago that at a glance looked like it was real candy paint. I got up close and the paint actually had gold flecks in it. I asked the guy and he said that it was a late model Taurus color, and that they sold a red primer that the base coat had to be sprayed over.

We have a tendency to just throw paint over primer and never give any thought to what we are shooting over what. Tinting the primer even helps with single stage enamel. Think about it for a bit if you are shooting a light color it is going to take less to cover a light primer than a dark primer and when it is driven the chips will have less tendency to show if the primer is a close match to the color.

Ok no charge for the rant.

Neeeeext

 

Being old sometimes helps if you remember what you did in the past. A ways up there was someone asking about a windex bottle for Lacquer, the plastic parts would at least soften if not dissolve. I painted my first car in the back yard in 1964, it was "Burgundy Mist Poly" '62 Buick color. Back then Poly was code for Metalic I painted the firewall, trunk, door frames and door jams with a "Black Flag" insecticide sprayer. You had to thin it almost 2:1 if I remember right. It worked fine and hand rubbed with Dupont Course Red. The outside was painted with a $19.00 Craftsman spray gun that I still have. It was a '55 Chevy 2Dr Hardtop, and I bought a gallon and half to do it, think that paint thinner and tape was all about $36.00.

 

As far a Painting pearls, in the early 70's Nacromer (sp.) Pearl was the brightest white, (probably the highest lead content also) I could find, TAP Plastic was supplier). As a base I would use R&M Ice Box White, mixing toner with binder added. I wish I could still find the Pearl. With yellow pearl I would Tint the Platinum Primer with the same Chrome Yellow toner that I used in the top coats, Ditzler 311 I think. it was thin it out add retarder so it would take 5 min to flash, MBC cranked up to Kill, 85psi , large inner tip and 15" wet pattern with lots of overspray in the air. But It worked and if you paid attention to your patterns you wouldn't have any patterns. Back then I worked for Signs by the Brush, in Hayward Ca. learned a lot and wish that everyone could experience what it was like, not just read about it.

 

Well with our system, you can make your sealer the exact color as your topcoat which is pretty unique.
Now here is a good tip if you don't have access to our system and you want a sealer that helps with coverage, take a black and white picture of the color you are going with, the color that shows up - will be the most optimum gray scale primer sealer system to go with. If you take a picture of a yellow- it will show up as white in a black and white photo and that's the perfect color to go under yellow. The only color that this doesn't work with is silver- put a black sealer down first because you know when you have full coverage.
The bad part about using sealers - part of having UV resistance is having enough color on the vehicle. If you use black sealer and 1 coat of black basecoat, 2-3 years down the road you will have issues. So always try to put at least 2 coats of color to help aide in a long term shine and color richness.

Oh and a FYI update on the lacquer- we got lacquer resin samples in, sprays and looks great with conventional solvents, but when we add exempt solvents we lose the luster. So we are changing some stuff around so it works for everyone. And as always if anyone wants samples to "TEST" we will be happy to ship. But please do not try on a vehicle just scrap metal etc.

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Good to hear. Theres no point in me getting samples right now, I am building a new shop, nowhere to spray right now.

 

Just got in some voc compliant lacquer clear samples! Going to spray today. Hope all goes well so we can get this released soon.

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Woo-hoo!

 

Question for you guys that have sprayed lacquer... what kind of gloss did the lacquer have next day? Before sand and buff. I have been spraying our new lacquer, and looks great, next day gloss goes down to about 80%. It buffs out beautiful to a full gloss with little effort, but I don't like losing 20% of gloss, and didn't know if it's just the nature of the lacquer. I think we can fix the issue with slower solvent because I know it's the humidity, but it will make the lacquer have a slower dry time. Thoughts? What do you guys like for a flash time between coats? If I add a 20 min solvent that will give time for moisture to escape, but some guys would hunt me down if they had to wait 20 mins between coats.

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I always expect lacquer to dull down after shooting. The paint loses a lot of solvent, so it should shrink and dull. That's why you have to sand an buff it for best results.
I used to just reload my gun and continue shooting, coat after coat. At least in decent temperatures. 15 min. if it was cold out, and using a faster reducer. I think offering a retarder to slow dry time is the best solution. Let the painter decide if he needs it. Anyone shooting lacquer should know about humidity vs. dry time, and how and when to use retarder. Are you going to have different thinners for different temps?

 

Lacquer always has a drop in gloss. The only extra sensitive thing about it is humidity and it will trap water out the air and blush when flashed, or actually have a haze to the surface. Slow solvent or warm air combats this well. I'd think anyone using lacquer today isn't the least bit concerned about "production" so flash time should be every minute it needs. Paint application is a big deal in my little place. We 'set up' for it with clean floors, walls, et al. I give a full 15 minutes on conventional lacquer, after the 3rd coat a full 20 minutes each coat. New guns "pile it on" more than the old syphon guns did and you have to make adjustments, allowances.

 

Same as the others, its normal for it to get dull, thats why you buff it. Slowing it down is not a problem.

 

There is a 4 page preview of What GM said in an SAE paper about the "what," and "why," and even some "how" of their change from nitrocellulose lacquer to acrylic lacquer in the 50s.
http://papers.sae.org/590088/