Technical Lacquer Paint Questionnaire

I'm definitely in on this Guru, all I know to ask is sand-ability, and a good clear. All I have ever used is PPG and HOC products. I was recently at a PPG store in Reno to buy PPG lacquers and walked away empty handed when quoted a "Jobber" price. I'm still using PPG epoxy over bare metal.
Thanks for your hard work to supply us lacquer users with a good product.

 

Does anyone live in a area that requires 2.1lbs/gl for single stage? I have sample resins soon but if I don't have to build a 2.1, I won't.

I sprayed a small sample of the black lacquer out of a squirt bottle (like a 409 bottle) onto a panel just to test dry time with heavy inconsistent film build, you would not believe how well it slicked out, I am going to retest because it has to be a fluke or luck of the draw. I will take pictures to document this go around and post on here.

 

Is that a VOC number? Not sure there's any specific requirements in MI.

 

Yes, Michigan is 5.0voc for single stage. So we are good there.

 

I'm gonna put this up here and in the "haters" thread. When asked "...why lacquer..." I say this but words don't get it done. This lacquer was applied in 1931:

If it matters it's on this 3800 mile original and one off:

 

I saw the first picture and I was like why did he post a picture of a concrete floor. That's a beautiful finish!

 

Its not the first time he has posted one of these photos...

 

We are 420grams/Litre for single stage in Canada which works out to about 3.5lbs/gl. Our laws were originally in keeping with California but I am not sure if California has put in more stringent limits since then or not.The only things down around 2lbs/gl (250grams/Litre)here are primer surfacers and Clears.

 

Yes, and Highlander will not divulge what polishing product's he use's....

 

Lord it's going to be hard to get the lacquer clear at 2.5! Freakin Enviro-natzis
K-13 once I get this built, you need to find me a decent paint jobber in Canada to sell the mix system to. That will be easy to go that route,.and could get around some loopholes. Like the lacquer clear. Would integrating clear be considered the same as regular clear or could it fall under single stage?

 

He is a link to the regulations in Canada they are kind of odd in places.
https://www.ec.gc.ca/cov-voc/default.asp?lang=En&n=E16AD95D-1#Annx
Regular lacquer can be sold if used for restorations but I believe you have to have some sort of paperwork to get away with it. It's dumb.
I will start asking around and see if guys are getting asked for Lacquer and if they think they could sell it.

 

Actually this system is unique, the toners are in a universal resin, then you add a binder to convert it to either a lacquer, base coat, polyurethane, acrylic urethane, dtm sealer, enamel or interior vinyl color. So that's why I want this lacquer to work within this system because we have colors already matched and you can do so much with the 1 system.
Oh and we have just finished another binder that converts the top layer of rust and seals it off from moisture, and you can get it mixed in any color, I am not a fan of rust converters, but I brushed on over sanded and unsanded rust on my rust box 39 olds, and has been holding up outside since August so far. So that will probably be ready by this summer. Very similar to the rust mort product.

 

Very interesting stuff Guru. FWIW, I'm in for a little lacquer when this happens, color dependent.

 

2 things; For the record I didn't paint or polish the car shown. I put it up there as to why someone might choose lacquer when there's superior products (in durability standards) available. Lacquer will always finish like the one shown given the skill and discipline required. 2nd, I have indeed divulged what I use to polish my finishes, and in fact the steps taken from primer through final wipe down. My secrets? I start at the metal in order to attain clear reflections. In the metal is finishing and panel fit using the least amount of fillers or primers. Some need a bunch and you can't get away from it, but the less substrate material on the metal the less solvent penetration and other voodoo science that helps to make reflections out of focus. I sand to 3000, cut with a wool bonnet and Meguire's #3, foam pad with the same and use a Meguire's wax for a final. The wax doesn't go on until the next time I detail the car, usually for a show and sometimes as much as 6 months later. It's in the hands and eyes more than the products.

 

Probably me Highlander, cause I'm not the sharpest tack in the box. I thought the question was why the shot of the polished floor?

 

We got rough figures on resin cost today, looks like it might retail between $115-$200/ gallon $200 would be the most expensive pigment, but this is for a 2 coat full coverage system. If cost is too high I could lower the pigment load, which would lower the cost roughly 20%. Is this pricing in line or decent?

 

Wow, I go on vacation and miss a great thread like this one. Can we start over?

I'd be in for some lacquer, though I only finish one or 2 cars a year. Certain vehicles need the look of lacquer, and it's hard to get newer paints to duplicate this, though I've come close using acrylic enamel w/hardener, and SS urethane.
One issue I haven't seen addressed is the reason I like lacquer, even with it's shortcomings. That is depth of finish. NOT DOI, or "shiny-ness". Lacquer has more translucency than enamels, and uros. It is a difficult thing to describe, but very important IMHO. Like the difference between red metallic paint, and candy apple red paint. The penetration of light through more layers of paint, and the way the eye sees it, set lacquer off from other paints. As I said, I've come close to this by mixing clears into enamels, and it comes close, but lacquer still had quite a different look. I never mixed paint from scratch, but I'd guess that lacquer either used more transparent binders than enamels, or used more translucent toners to keep the paint more translucent.
Thoughts on buffing: I used to sand and buff every lacquer paint job I did. But I did mostly restos and custom paint. It was much easier to do than today's finishes, and I would wait at least a month before doing it, to prevent dieback, and shrinkage. The last lacquer job I did, though, was on a 53 Merc custom, and I did all my substrate work with HOK epoxy primer. Did not get any of the usual swelling, shrinking and dieback that I used to get with lacquer primer. The choice of a superior substrate makes the lacquer job more durable, and easier to keep "straight". Just like using a catalyzed glaze is so much better than Nitrostan.

 

Cant speak for anyone else, but I'd be very happy with that. Further to my pm yesterday, I will get a hold of the guy tomorrow, I cant promise anything, but I'll give it a shot!

 

I'd never thought of this. Thanks Highlander.

 

Assuming you are not joking, the pic he took was of the panel on the car-showing the reflection, sorta like a mirror

 

Chop, I agree with some of your thoughts on why lacquer looks like it does, but the characteristics are what I believe to be the key reasons. Mainly what I think is that the density (we sometimes refer to as hardness) of the final film does the trick and it allows the finisher to create as pure a surface possible. You're right " shiney" is vastly different than reflective quality. The density of that Peerless finish shows reflections so well its almost hard to comprehend. I've "faked it" with modern base/clear systems but it takes an extra step, that being a fully surfaced base coat. I also agree that transparency is a key element when using single stage 'thanes. A dark base color under say, a deep maroon, and using transparent toners to make the color adds depth otherwise not attained in conventional mixes with solids and oxides. In an over-simplified description, if you can see through the color it will reflect from below as well as on the surface. At the end of it all the whole gig is surface development.

 

So let me ask this, typically most people can paint a car all over with 3 quarts of todays paint. When you would do a all over lacquer how much would it take?

 

The thinners that I used don't seam to be available anymore they make a big part of the job . something to think about .

 

Not joking, joke must be on me. Sorry, don't see it in the top pic. But thanks for clarifying.
Now back to a great thread.

 

Lacquer as it is now (like PPG) would take a gallon or more depending upon color to do an average car. It gets reduced at least 150% which is where the quotes of multiple coats come in. "...20 coats of hand rubbed..." But the mil thickness ends up normal in final finish, in fact less than urethane.

 

Ok I got samples of the black lacquer here. If anyone would like a pint sample for testing please pm me with your address. I will send a questionnaire which mainly I am just concerned about buffability. This will be just a starting point.
I am not going to ship reducer with it, just because of liability and the carelessness of shippers. But you can use ppg dt reducer or matrix mr reducers, acetone etc. If you don't have those, I will pre reduce for you.
Thanks in advance!!

 

Sounds like a slick system. The biggest obstacle up here is the fact that the paint companies really try to lock down and push out generics. Unlike the U.S. most jobbers have one paint line so individual paint companies have a big influence over what a jobber does. In the last couple of year some have been able to get generic lines in but they are usually smaller low volume jobbers. The problem with those types is many don't want the hassle of buying and inventorying product so they use the generic systems that are being sold by one of the bigger paint and body warehouses up here. It is a very tough market because the small population size limits the amount of product any one jobber is able to move which gives the paint companies tremendous power in controlling jobbers. There is a large retailer in British Columbia with over 90 stores that it would probably work beautifully for but they are a PPG Platinum distributor and PPG would never allow it to go in so those are the types of battles you would be up against up here.

I will still ask my jobber and warehouse customers what they think and let you know.

 

You know its so funny the way the automotive side is. I fight that same battle here, but all more the reason for a body shop to consider doing a retail jobber store as well. I have had 3 this year do that.
You know the paint reps look down on "generic" products but the higher ups in those same big companies are knocking on our doors everyday trying to sell us their resin and pigment.
And usually paint reps have never manufactured a gallon of paint in their life, they just have the gift of gab. Lord I better stop I can bitch all day about wannabe paint reps and the politics with it. Lol

 

The Olds in my avitar was sprayed by me in 84,lacquer.I havent done a full car since.I saw that car in my sleep after wet sanding.Iam going to attempt a resurrection of it but by the time I get all the swelled shit out and cracks,I really dont think the time spent will be worth it,its pretty bad. It is gonna get a new color in about a year or so.I am sure the new paint will not be as cheap as this stuff was.....$52 A GALLON

 

Lol I have paint thats $52/gallon, but probably not what you are looking for.