Technical Lacquer Paint Questionnaire

Probably Hibernia but with prices reaching $850 a gallon for some colours a cheaper option would be nice to have.

 

… as to the general perception that lacquer does not hold up. The stories referring to lacquer as an inferior paint as a stand alone when compared to the so called modern paints is to some degree opinionated conjecture at best. Yes it is higher maintenance yet too these modern paints derive their base from acrylic lacquer itself. The stories one hears regarding cracking and shrinkage is solely due to incorrect application methods, too thick coating coverage per layer, inadequate flash times, not waiting long enough between cured application times and cutting etc. With that said, for example there are many original factory lacquer jobs sitting in junk yards everywhere that still exhibit that smooth deep color that lacquer bestows. Yes it is alive, it chalks eventually but a quick buff will bring it back alive once again and as a result you still have that deep, deep hue that seems to go on & on. Another misconception is that all you need to do is clear coat a base or clear coat a lacquer and all is well and looks the same as lacquer. This is also false. Whenever you clear over anything it will always render that Urethane Bar Table look that many of us can remember from the 70's. Clearing may render it shinny i.e. base/clear coats but it will not render hue depth and tone clarity even if you cut the base before clearing.

So in reply to the OP, a copy cat lacquer paint today would in our opinion need to be able to:

- Be applied in less coats but still maintain depth and hue retention.

- Be formulated so one can properly apply this layering while using the back yard garden hose folks refer to as HVLP. HVLP as defined, volumes the paint onto the surface. In contrast your siphon Binks 7 atomizes the paint via small vapor dispersion onto the surface.

- Be formulated to tolerate less to no dilution for application while maintaining final film density and durability.
People like to talk about making a paint more 'sprayable' by simply adding more reducer or increasing the air knob output or dabbing the fluid needle travel out more if too dry. One must remember that the paint solids are formulated among other things to insure a given final pencil hardness to the cured coating. Diluting this pre described concentration of solids and thereby their ability to combine properly while into solution changes the overall physical chemistry of the paint from the time it leaves the gun, travels through space, striking the surface and lastly the flow out onto the substrate. Diluting to any degree renders the paint to a given extent to be inferior as to what the original chemical specifications dictated. If you have to dilute or increase air or many of the other attempts to have a flat slick first pass coat, more likely your needle and cap are wrong for the job or the gun itself is not up to the task. To this point, many ss urethanes today are packed and shipped with a 4:1 mix design ratio and no reducer needed. In other words they are packaged pre diluted with reducer and some with anti-fisheye agents as well. Their flow rate drip cup is greatly reduced resulting in more layers needing to be applied for adequate mil coverage and the resulting cured surface softer and more prone to annoying scratches.

 

Ok Finally got somewhere with our lacquer binders. Its been a while, but we have been testing, spraying etc. I did a sprayout today and got very postive results. Note** this is a VOC compliant lacquer, can be used in ALL 50 states.
Started with a fender from the last clinic, we just scuffed with 800 on top, and on the bottom we scuffed with 400, just to see if scuff marks soak through using 400 grit.
The Lacquer binder. Its not yellow, its a lined can just fyi.

The binder mixes 1:1 with toner. Then I reduced with a urethane reducer instead of a lacquer thinner (some lacquer has a small trace of alcohol, this will blister or haze lacquer).
Sprayed 1st coat of lacquer with the timer on, in 2 mins the paint was completely flashed, and ready for the next coat.

This was the first coat at the 2 minute mark. I could not believe how quick it flashed.
After the flash, went with 2nd coat. With the 2nd coat, I had full hide. Now I was going over a red fender, so I took that into consideration. The 2nd coat took 5 mins to flash.

It looks just a tad dull, but still impressive I thought.
I put 4 coats total, allowing a 5 min flash between the 2, 3rd and 4th coat. I then let it sit for 30 mins. I tried to wet sand to see if it would be dry enough...

You can see it gummed the paper up just a little, but not what I thought it would be. After that, I just used our "house brand" aggressive compound with a blue shop towel, followed by our swirl remover compound with a different blue shop towel. The 1200 grit scratches came out with no effort.

I didn't spend any time buffing. just fyi.
So next, I rolled that front clip out of the way grabbed a junk fender that had some polyurethane that we sprayed a year ago and scuffed it.....
Here I taped up a portion of it.

1st coat over the yellow....
10 coats later........

The reason for 10 coats, I am putting this in direct sunlight and letting it set for a month. If this lacquer is going to crack, this will make it crack. Every coat applied was very heavy coats. I dont think it will crack, due to the type acrylic we use in the lacquer.
Now if all goes well, some of the rough retail pricing will be:
Blacks - $125/gal
Whites - $135/gal
Reds - $192 / gal
and the VOC Compliant reducer $65 gallon
I have not tested with metallics yet. I dont know how well the metallic will buff, but I am going out of town, this will be a test for next week. I will keep you all informed on the panel.
Also a HUGE thank you, to all of you guys imput and advice on building this lacquer. Without your input, we would have never even attemped this binder as part of our mixing system. A suggestion has been made on the part number starting with HLB (H.a.m.b Lacquer Binder) and it has been noted.

 

SWEET!!!

 

Awesome. Will it be reducible with any good quality lacquer reducer or will it require your reducer?

 

To be voc compliant, have to use ours.... Otherwise any good quality urethane grade or lacquer will work.

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How does it smell?

 

With the voc compliant reducer, it's got its on funky smell. But with the regular reducer, smells more like the reducer than the paint. I don't know, it's not strong.

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Was just wondering if it had that traditional lacquer smell. Also what equipment did you use, what tip, pressure? How does the overspray act? Does it stick everywhere or do you blow it off unintended surfaces and sweep it up like traditional lacquer?

 

I used a $70 reduced pressure spray gun with a 1.3 tip. I don't know about overspray. I have good fans to pull overspray, but I am sure it dries so fast that you would sweep it up. I can spray a front clip when I get some more time. This will help tell me how the overspray will melt in. I had such good luck, that I tried to blow the lacquer up, and didn't do a large area. I had a blow drier in one hand, spray gun in the other stacking coats on as fast as possible.

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Thank you soooooooo much for your efforts. Flux

 

Nice work. Will keep this in mind for future projects.

 

Thanks, I will feel more comfortable after the 30 day mark. We also made a lacquer clear that can take a hardener. I have not sprayed yet.

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I am interested to see how this works because of like to use something like this on my car

 

The fender looked great this morning, our chemist hit a grand slam I think.

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This is exciting! I'm hoping to shoot some paint in the spring. Any idea where blues and greens will fit in price wise?

 

Watching this with great interest. If it pans out, available by the quart?

 

Appreciated

 

Blues and greens are priced around the whites give or take 10-15 percent.

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Yes, we also sell paint stores, so for some of you California guys, let your local paint stores know!
We sell quarts pints, doesn't matter. The issue is the freight. But if we have a jobber store close to you, then you are good to go. I can also package into aerosol cans. 1 can at a time is a little pricey, just because of the solvent waste cleaning the aerosol machine out.

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This is a loooong thread, and I must admit that I did not read it all, but some of it... Here is my first and last Lacquer paint job. I say last because I'm 74 years old... ahah
There are other galleries on my webpage, so you are welcome to click on the little house in the upper left corner to go to the "home" page where all the galleries are...
https://49fordcoupe.smugmug.com/Painting-the-Car/

 

Just a quick update. This is the fender I put 10 coats on, no buffing right out of the gun.... Day 3

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Very interested, thinking about shooting my 57 desoto in the garage. Muscatel maroon metallic.... very interested to see how the metallic works out

 

Watching with interest. I'm in need of 34 Ford Dearborn Blue.

 

2 weeks have gone by, no issues with the lacquer. It has shrunk a little and I am seeing small sand scratches from underneath, not a big issue, a sealer or a finer final sanding would prevent that. I am going to buff after the 30 day mark. I am very impressed with it. Talking with our chemist, a activator can be added to the lacquer at a ratio of 10:1, this will give better exterior durability and color holdout. I am not sure how quick the cure time or buffability would change the lacquer.
If I have time today, I am going to spray the black lacquer and buff.

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Cool stuff. Did you originally scuff this fender with 400? Just curious how fine one would have to go if you think this was a little too coarse.

 

I am following this thread as one who reacts to the isocyanates. I have always painted with the proper PPE and good ventilation but have reacted twice. It is exciting to watch you develop a quality lacquer system but would like to see a quality product that is not dependent on an iso hardener for its longevity. A lacquer that can use other reducers than lacquer thinner is exciting as well.
I went from lacquer to the single stage acrylic enamels with hardeners as they always turned out and made me look like better painter than I really am. I was using urethane in a spray booth to paint an airplane when I developed the sensitivity. It happened in spite of all the precautions with ventitlation & PPE. It was my first go with urethane and it was looking good but I had to step back and let a friend finish. Iso's are used in the acrylics so that door is closed as well. Each reaction gets worse. Lacquers give beautiful deep finishes and that is the direction that I am leaning to finish my car. Stubborn I guess. I like to apply the paint as it is a great satisfaction to see a car or truck come back life after all the body work is done.

Thank you for your keen interest in developing a quality lacquer product along with the excellent education & thread(s).

 

I did scuff with 400 dry, the 400 I used is aggressive and a brand new sheet as well. I would say 400 on da or 600 wet dry should be fine.
I am going to spray black here in a bit, I am stepping up to 600 for the black. Will post after while.

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The acrylic we are using in the lacquer, is high end European resin. Doesn't cost much more to go 1st class. So I think you will see a huge improvement over traditional lacquer as far as color holdout is concerned.
Also one other benefit, you can use our dtm reducer in our lacquer and go directly to metal.

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