Herb, I don't think it is a dumb question. This person is thinking in the direction all hotrodders should. If I recall correctly, the bearings are formed as bare steel and the other layers are plated. I do believe it would be very hard to re-fit bigger bearings to a smaller size and get the fit and squish correct. If you were to try to re-form them, I would cover the bearing surface with clear packing tape. just make sure not to get any particles trapped between the tape and the bearing surface. The surface of the form needs to be polished too. .
Hey B guys, heres a question for ya. My new 33 pickup has a B in it, but has an A carb on it. I picked these up tonight...guy "thought" they were B carbs. What do you think? Has all the Ford hook up parts, but obviously bigger.
Dan You might have forgotten that we have a guy the makes new shells from Clevite 77 stock. Three mains might cost you US$100 plus postage.
I went to the Antique Nats yesterday too. I got another class win this year with a best time of 17.687 @ 74.61 mph I've been thinking of building a banger powered dragster, so when I saw this for sale, I thought it might be the start of my next project.
Good to hear from you Jim. I hope the trip here improved your health. Your right, I wasn't thinking that clear. .
CDO I went to the Antique Nats yesterday too. I got another class win this year with a best time of 17.687 @ 74.61 mph Congratulations.......good job and tanks for all the good photos.
Yep those are B carbs! They look pretty good too, probably all three will be usable with a good cleaning and a gasket set.
Any more photos of your competitor? I dont often see Ts sitting that high with 16-inch wheels, and Id like a couple more pics to consider. -Dave
You want high tech? I'll give you some high tech. While in a big "thrash" to finish my car for the Antique Nationals I forgot to send one of my 2 model "B" distributors to FS to have it modified so I took the one with the least bit of slack or clearance on the small shaft. This is the one that carries the point cam. I took it apart and filed the weight stops so the weights would travel max without hitting the inside of the distributor housing. Then I took the lightest, smallest springs from an old mallory advance kit and installed them. After I had the engine running and idling at 1100 RPM's I put the timing light on it and at 1100 it had 20 degrees advance. Not sure where it starts but it doesn't kick back. Had to guess as it has an "A" cover on it. Now, you can dream and re-engineer these old engines all you want or you can carefully put it together with what you hope is the right combination of parts, trusting the cam grinder and the head manufacturer. On this engine each port is matched to the gasket or vice versa, the header locates tightly on studs with .484 diameter to maintain alignment. the manifold is/was built for 'C" size Winfield's but due to a apparently worn out throttle body on one it wouldn't balance out under 2000 RPM's so back to the Winfield box and found a pair of "BB"'s with the mounting holes drilled out to 3/8" I then used a Starret 6" precision level to set the float chambers with the car leveled. carb flanges are set at 3 degrees . So after all my sanding of gaskets and careful fitting at the ports I end up with a 1/6" eddy point at each carb flange. No time to tune carbs just an educated guess on needle settings. Spark plugs were the only matching set of 4 that I found in the box NGK Bp6's or something like that. Also, as to shrouding the valves, I milled .090 off of the head. Before the first run at the Nats the engine hadn't run over 2000 RPM's. Our best was 82.7 with a 15.9 ET on the third pass. Now, if I heard correctly, the fastest overhead 4 eliminator ran a 79 on a 17 something ET. And CDO has posted his winning results. So for an old farts build and a young kids first time driving I think we did alright. This is a Hot Rod! Also, All major machine work done at Taylor Engine.
T-Head Thanks for the interesting, and in depth reply The fact that inserts that are available now may not be in the future is the main reason for my line of thinking regarding this--although my cars will undoubtedly outlive me, engine wise. Very interesting about Dusey going to steel shells- something to remember if I do another lower end Your babbiting fixture looks quite a bit like mine- my line boring rig works- but I would be ashamed to post a photo- 100% home made, and looks it! While I agree that a new alloy steel crank is the best thing for a 3 main four, it's initial cost is prohibitive for the low buck iron that most of us run. You are quite right about a 3 main doing the hula at revs (and even more so a two main [GASP]) In his book "Building and Racing My 750", P J Stephens relates how, after racing his Austin Seven special for a while, he was able to acquire a set of stronger rods. Once rebabbited and installed, he started to have rod bearing problems. The final diagnosis was that the old rods would flex, and bend, as the crank whipped, where as the new ones were too stiff! The photos that you posted show my old machinist's eye that you know what you are doing, and do it well. One last thing--looking back over your post to see if there was anything I missed, I noticed that your babbit pouring fixture has a round base-- do you pour centrifugally? Herb
Bill- knowing what you are doing is what makes the difference! There was an old rodder in this area years ago who had an aluminum bodied sports car (home built, but not by him) that he put a small block into. EVERY major component in the engine was something that one of his many acquaintances had discarded. He never took the car to a strip, claimed that his reflexes were too slow, but in impromptu street drags the car was impressive----(RIP Daddy Red) Herb
Bluto- you wrote You might have forgotten that we have a guy the makes new shells from Clevite 77 stock. Three mains might cost you US$100 plus postage. Care to give contact info? Herb
Herb...... While I agree that a new alloy steel crank is the best thing for a 3 main four, it's initial cost is prohibitive for the low buck iron that most of us run. ******* You are right about all this being expensive to do right...... I can't .....I just do it for clients this way. What I was tring to get across for the average guy who drives his hot four if it is done right the first time with care it will probably be OK and as you know there is nothing wrong with babbitt. A vibration dampner also goes a long way. But when you go into racing with a stock Ford of Chevy crank and three mains it is not a matter of if it will break, but a matter of when. For someone who has to pay to have his engine built by a pro for racing or hard use it is cheaper in the long run to save and then spend the money for a good crank and bearings. All they have to do is read through all of the posts on this thread since it started and look at all of the broken stuff. Good racers back in the day would put in a new crank every week as insurance. Kinda tells you something. ******** One last thing--looking back over your post to see if there was anything I missed, I noticed that your babbit pouring fixture has a round base-- do you pour centrifugally? Herb no ....That high tech thing you are asking about is a cheap hot plate I use to keep my fixture at the right temp.... about 225 degress. I drill my mandrels and use a candy thermometer in them that you can see. I tin the inserts and after they are in the mold I preheat the insert to the point that the tinning is molten and then pour the babbitt in and get a great bond. That and the rough surface on the inside of the insert locks it in. As I mentioned and you know one can do all of this yourself if you have the desire and with no more outlay of money on machinery than you would pay to have a good engine built. Lathes, Bridgeports are cheap today and you should be able to find a portable align boring rig for not a lot of money. You can also use a right angle attachment and do align boring in your mill.
Hopefully you guys can help me with a question I have. A local guy has a weiand head and an evans two pot intake that is for sale. He wants 650 for the head and 300 for the intake. Is this high? Seems a bit to me but wanted to ask here to see if he is in the ball park. Also he has no idea what C/R the head is. Was there only one c/r head made or were there multiple ratios you could get? Thanks.
Both of you guys are right if you spend the time to do it right and think it all out you can do a lot with little. Look at the great things that Rich Fox has done also.
It is worthy of mention that the 1932 Plymouth PB was a three main four cylinder engine that came with thin steel backed flash babbet bearings. Mine worked fine at reasonably high RPMs. Never broke a crank. No full flow filter. I don't know. The stock bearings seemed very much like todays inserts and lasted quite well.
Rich...... what I meant is some of the Model A guys are finding that some inserted rod shells in stock engines without filters are wearing the thin babbitt layer off in a couple of thousand miles and then they are down to the copper and the thing starts knocking. I am not sure what the make of the engine is that these inserts were in originally. Can you post a pix of the bottom end of your old Plymouth. I would like to see what it looks like. As you know they were quite good engines. Keep us posted on your Dodge.
On the subject of inserts in non filtered engines, are you sure these are the babbit copper steel inserts. The inserts as supplied in the "Sokie" rods are just a slight babbit or tin plate over a steel shell, no copper. It would seem and has been my experience that those who spend the dollars to convert rods to commercial inserts from existing engines usually have the system pressurized and a filter installed but those who buy the "Skokie" rods, jn a lot of cases, do not install filters.
Bill..... I have seen a set, tin or babbitt overlay on copper over steel with the copper almost worn thru. And yes I am sure done right with a pressure system and a full flow you will be fine as I mentioned that you have to do this earlier. Any idea what the inserts are out of Bill, I am curious?
I recently spent some time on the insert question and have found most of the "A" rod sizes are from obsolete engines. The ones I currently have in my engine are from a Continental engine. These came in a Continental box with Federal Mogul trimetal and Michigan (I think) babbit over steel I put the trimeatal on the top and the plain ones on the bottom after cutting new notches in the rods and caps. H and H was going to make or have made new trimetal inserts for their "A" rods. One of the problems has been with the crank pin diameter. I don't know where some crank shops get their specs but the discussion I was in started with guys that had purchased "touring" engines that had seized up due to inadequate clearance. The cranks were pulled and ground to the proper clearance.
This is some interesting information to add to the discussion about inserts and this tells how Federal Mougul a least used to make them. I have quite a bit of info on inserts and bearings after having learned how to make them and will post more. Let me knoew if there is anything in paticular you would like to know.
If you like flatheads your have to see this virtual video of one of Henrys finest...... It is truly unbelievable. It was posted on the Model T Ford racing thread I started on the Ford Barn ....... Watch it you WILL ENJOY IT. http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=FnuRW3qye-A The Model T racing thread, come join us an if you have anything to add please do. Thanks, T-H http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3723
No can do on the Plymouth crankcase. I sold those engines in '07 and never took pictures of them when I had the chance. However, it had a very deep block extending down well past the crank centerline. Much in the manner of a Y block. The rear main is a very snug fit requiring a slide hammer to remove from the block. Numbers 1 and 2 can be removed with slight persuasion and a soft hammer. On my Plymouth I used Allis-Chalmers main inserts. Most of two sets. They required increasing the bearing bores slightly with a line hone.
T-Head you do very nice work!! With the topic of crankshafts being topical I'll ask this question again. I'm starting to assemble the Vanguard (Triumph TR type) engine for my midget. The crankshaft has a lot of similarities to an A crank. I'd like to compare them before I bolt it together.They look like this:
Another crank that might be even more dimentionally similar the the A is the Austin Healey 100-4. Unfortunately, I don't have one of those out in my shed. A rare and expensive vehicle. (90% of production went to the USA) Probably a heap of engines sitting around in barns after they were swapped out for SBC's. OR.... basically the same as the old London Taxi. Must be common in the UK. A NZ racer bought 2 NOS ones (plus bearings) for 95 UK pound on theEBAY uk. Might be worth measuring one.
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