I've Got A Point

Ive been running points in my sbc powered 34 pick up daily for 6 years, been working fine. i check the dwell once in a while, it checks out fine so far.

jeff

 

Jere Jobe sells airplane magneto points that will fit and last for ever, plus he is an ignition master. He will also be able to answer your wearing them out issue also.

http://www.vintagecarburetiontech.com/

 

Same thing happened to me in the fall, shortly after my Y-block swap. I didn't have enough grease on the cam and the block wore down and closed the gap right up. When she started dying every time I hit the brakes, I fussed with the timing countless times, until I finally checked my points gap.

Since the truck is a daily, I'm switching to the Accel points eliminator now to try to improve my gas mileage with a hotter spark ... but I'm keeping a spare module and a spare distributor (w/ the points setup) in my toolbox, for emergencies.

 

My stock car may have run like poop after the points started to die, but I always finished the race. Put a pertronix distributor in, ran great until it died. Only DNF that year.
Whether you like messing with points or not, they have been around forever and are more than proven, and EVERYBODY knows someone who knows how to make them last. Find that person!

 

Late to the party.....Speaking of Points, A very kind Gentleman gave me Mallory YA for my Model A. Rebuilting the unit new bushings cleaned up the shaft, ready for assembly, anyway the points purchased from Century Performance do not match the plate. Points package states YC but that was what was recomnmended. Like to stick with point set any suggestions. My old YA point block looks like Ryan's picture.

 

Two things: I use a KRW fixture, so don't normally improvise, but I am now putting together the moral equivalent of a KRW fixture which will do dwell and timing on a crab/58A using parts from Home Depot. Will report on progress...if I gettitdone, will need someone to post pics.
The other thing...where have you bought points lately, especially from regular parts sources but resto too, and what brand arrived? Quality, results??
I've bought Echlin a couple times via NAPA online...got what appears to be good parts.
They did not understand the dual point/ 4 pieces thing at all, and the first 2 times they sent a box containing only 3 parts. I told them via email what was needed and they sent me the missing pieces; next set I ordered was complete.

 

Yea I think the current owners of the Echlin brand name killed the line. You might want to try to locate the Niehoff or BWD ignition products brands made by Standard Motor Products. Last time I knew most of their stuff was made in Long Island City New York but who knows where now. There just aren't many ignition parts suppliers in the US anymore.

http://www.niehoff.com/
http://www.bwdbrand.com/web_app/Products/PartsGallery.aspx

 

I agree with the part about being able to fix the car on the side of the road.
After last years debacle with the Powergen Alternator and a HEI flathead distributor,I went back to a generator and points and have not had a problem since.
Use what you are comfortable with.

 

I just read and re read this from the beginning.
Ryan, what you are saying is that the points rubbing block wears down after a few hundred miles and closes/burns the points ,THEN you throw them away and fit a new set???
All points wear after a few hundred miles and then need re adjusting...always have always will. Often they need to be adjusted more than once .( Not saying the Chinese made stuff is not crap)

They normally settle down and last for a normal service .... 10-12000 miles. They can be cleaned ( points file ) and gapped and used again , just no one bothers, they prefer to go through the whole process again ?

Other things to check as Bruce has mentioned are the condition of the dissy cam, both surface condition and lobe height/concentricity from center .
Wear in the distributor bushings will cause premature wear and erratic opening ...different gaps as the rotor turns.
Wear in the drive tangs , warped dissy housing/timing cover surface and knicks and bumps or raised areas around the bolts from previous overtightening will also cause headaches . Make sure the bolts are clamping tightly too wrong ( too long bolts will not clamp properly).

Last but not least, check the voltage at the low tension side of the coil when the generator is charging full, both with lights on and off. If the reg is set to keep voltage up with lights on, the voltage at the ignition is often too high when running at speed with the lights off. This will heat the points spring/copper conductor and cause it to fail, it will also burn the points and eventually destroy the condensor.

CC8

 

If you have got rid of the junk points and both sets are doing that every time with standard spring tension it must be the cam...or something odd in the points plate!! have you tried another dissy...apart from the one you sent back for rework? Check that charging voltage though, it has got me before and not just on flatheads.

 

Ryan, I know it's a long shot and Bruce Lancaster seems to have it coverd, but you could check that the dissy cam lobes don't have a burr or some kind of sharp peak.
Anyway, goodonya for resisting the temptation to go electronic.

 

Finger nail test and close study of the wipe pattern will cover cam smoothness, then just rotate and check gap at each lobe to see if there's any strange wear.
it's getting to be a bad day if all the respectible tuneup parts are gone. Who has bought and used what lately??
Oh, order yourselves a cam adapter button from C&G or some place...I'm going to start by doing a Home Depot sourced knock off of the elusive Echlin dwell tool of the 1930's for all you poor devils who don't own a real one. Then I'm going to try to adapt the whole mess so it will set timing on a crab/59A using the wartime field expedient method published by Ford. Cam buttom makes a perfect and cheap basis for distributor tools.

Lookee here: Ford envisioned making the timing device part of the car! Lazy bastards never got around to installing them....

http://www.google.com/patents?id=Xn...&as_miny_is=1928&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=1948


While ordering the adaptor, get as applicable the '32-36 repair manual (reprint of old Echlin book) or the book advertised as "1939--48 Ford and Mercury shop manual", a version of a 1946 Canadian manual. Either will get you a nice picture of a degree wheel, already marked with Ford point cycle in degrees and ready to xerox and use...

 

Just reading this thread makes me want to go and hug my HEI.

 

I useta run Chevys with HEI..SOooo much trouble...I remember going out and opening the hood every damn 200,000 miles to see if it was still there...even bought it a new rotor once, but never bothered to drop it in.

 

Hmmmm...big problem with putting electronics in a crab is the limited altitude of the point area and the small space in all other directions too. Regular 1975-80 HEI's have a very flat pickup and reluctor. Might be a good swap...
Some available conversions for these things require a new fron bearing support and plate to get enough space...and I don't like the idea of aftermarket parts in there as anything that fails requires mailorder replacement, not a local parts store, and you can't get near free spare bits at the junkyard for emergency kit...plus the aftermarket stuff fails from any ground problems or such, while the HEI thrives even in the wretched ungrounded overheated engine bays of the '70's...

 

I just remembered something down at the in laws place while playing around down at the shop with the '35 Sedan, that has a '37 motor in it, but the '35 distributor, coil and all has been swapped back in. They changed the distributor in '36 and the points and condenser are different between the round top '35 coil distributor, and the flat top coil in the '36s up. I forget what the difference was, but I believe it was a change to the rocker and point mounting plate. Bruce, can you remember what they changed? My mind is a little foggy, and the books are two hours away in storage. It has been forever since I set the one up in the sedan, and I couldn't find the '38 I know I have laying around somewhere to compare. I'll keep digging around. I can't really see, but I can feel the difference if I had the two side by side.


Standard and Echlin are dropping parts right and left, if you know where a stash of them for any of the old motors, even OHVs are, I would buy them up and sell them to the guys on here before they all get "lost" in that big ashtray maker in the sky. Something else too is parts superseding. The book may show that the application runs through a certain number of years, but it isn't necessarily so. BTDT a number of times.

 

The round flattop 1936 Model 68 distrib was first to use the points kept on 1937--48.
The dome top 1932-1936 distributor used screw-adjust stationary points, the later had stationary point on a sliding plate like most modern ones. Old screw type was much easier to adjust! Could actually adjust running like an SBC...

 

Weekend progress: I managed an easy no-fancy-tools build of step one, a functional replication of a 1930's Echlin dwell gauge. Details in words shortly...really could use a local with E-lectric camera...

 

That's it. Thanks, I knew I wasn't losing my mind completely. Something else too, the condensers are of a different reference value, and need to be matched to the points and coil. I remember a few years ago, there was a generic part number condenser that was supposed to cover every application from '32- until duraspark came along. I know that can't be true. The wrong condenser, a bad voltage regulator, or anything that hikes the current up can kill a set of points and especially in the "married coil" type. I could picture a Pertronix melting in one of those, because those distributors ran pretty hot anyway. The old 9N tractors used it too and the new parts in the box were sometimes worse than the ones you took out of the tractor.

 

Funny that you mention that on the old screw type. I just fumbled around the tool box and found my old Calv-Van flex driver for doing just that, you could snake it in there, fire it up and set the dwell right on the money. Nothing prettier than a happy flattie purring away.

I like my FE's too, hotter than a two peckered bill goat up about 7000 at a shift too, but your roots are your roots. That little flat motor ticking over right just sounds sweet. I am trying to get that '35 Tudor Deluxe (humpback) sedan off of my father n law for awhile now. I have done most all of the work on it, and he is getting on up to 75 years old. I love that car! I have been tuning his stuff for 27 years now, and I love it. Right now were are doing a hot 302/C4 Ford '35 pickup with all of the modern driving stuff, but it doesn't do it for me like the old all original sedan (or what the truck was before it came apart, I drove it original but but with juice brakes both have that). They were a beautiful Edsel Ford creation! I even get a kick out of the old 9N front loader. Who needs a Mahindra when you have that? Never fails to start and go to work like it has since new. I pop the zerks, drain the bowl, and my him or my son can work it all day like a rented mule.

If I died tomorrow I would die happy.

 

OK...onward with the tech project.
Objective is...
To build a good functional replica of a NAPA/Echlin Ford distributor dwell setterupper.
To do so in a way that anyone can replicate with no machine tools or esoteric skills
To then convert it so it can set crab/21A/59A basic stock timing
Then to march on and convert THAT process to something workable for timing on the several models of "Diver's Helmet" distributors used 1932-1941.
Note that if we accomplish this, we will have a workable substitute for a KR Wilsom timing fixture, a rare and expensive device nowadays.
Anyone owning a lathe can produce a fancier structure easily, but so far my gadget doesn't even require an electric drill...
First two objectives are in hand.
I will describe the process in writing, and would welcome help in adding pictures.

First, buy from C&G a distributor/cam adaptor button. 11A-6280. It costs a crushing $14.00, but saves you the cost of a lathe...
While there consider book V-13, 1932-36 repair manual, if you own a distributor of that age, $20...great diagram degree wheel of dwell cycle...this is actually the Echlin manual from 1936.
V-24 '46-48 service book, field timing procedure and much more, $28...timing procedure is online...
DG-06, KRW timing fixture manual...
Ask about the so-called '39-48 shop manual. actually the '46 Canadian manual, which has the '37-48 timing wheel diagram.
The books aren't necessary, but each clarifies something in this process and adds in pictures.
Go to Home Depot and bag the little degree wheel mentioned in a previous post above...cheap. don't remember exact cost. And you need a step-drill, chosen for its ability to move from size to size with a good degree of concentricity and ability to punch through thin material more neatly than a conventional bit. HD sells a nice set of three running from about nothing to 5/8", and if you've never used the things you will love them for all sorts of uses. You will be using them entirely by hand today.

 

Ryan,
Ya know I could have put some "late model, whiz bang" electronic ignition in the "Orange 5w", back when I was re doing it the last time.....but, I have had one of those types fail me on the road with no immediate fix....luckily it was a kit to fit the distributor at the time, so I pulled all of that whiz bang stuff out, replaced the "old timey" points and made it back to Texas. When it was time to put in a brand new distributor....I put a Mallory dual point in for the "able to fix it and keep on going" factor. And yes I carry a spare set of points, condensor and cap for the same reason....."I AM gonna get there!!"....(yea, yea...I could carry the "late model parts, too)
Outdated, probably....but its just a danged ol Hot Rod.
Skot

 

Your Right Ryan Tikering Is Part Of The Game And That Is What Keeps It Fun,this Is Why I Spend Many A Night "fixing"stuff On My Ride That Aint Broke "yet"and Too Me Thats What It Is About.dont Second Guess The Electronic Stuff,that Stuff Fails Just The Same.

 

Great to hear!

 

Cool tool! I posted this link somewhere else:

http://www.tavia.com/free_degree_wheel.html

You can print a few copies and put it on a piece of cardboard and use it for all kinds of things, may be useful. Thanks for the work on this project.

 

The actual build, stage one:
The C&G adaptor button has a 5/8" shank on the side towards distributor. The hole in the degree wheel is tiny...start with a step drill that fits the existing hole, as maintaining a good degree of concentricity is essential. Keep the step drill perpendicular to the wheel so the cone shaped ramps that feed the work to the next size work properly. Keep turning it by hand as it goes through step after step. If you are that high tech, a drill press can be used to hold bit and wheel, but do the rotating by hand. Keep on going till the 5/8 step drops through. This will be close enough to the ring of writing on the wheel to allow an eyeball check of concentricity...wheel now should be a smooth exact fit on the shank of the adaptor. If you want, you can repeat the drilling with a CD and use the chrome wheel as a backup to make the numbers show better.
Next, two retainers: I first pushed on an o-ring, from a Chinese fleamarket universal kit. This snugs the wheel against the flange in a technically unchallenging manner. Next, I popped on a little wire coil keyring of the sort that garages use to append a tag to the customer's car keys. This closes the ends of the slot so adaptor stays properly centered on distributor tang with no cam or engine to pilot it.
Obviously, each part and process could be done differently by someone with lathe or even drill press, but the aim here is universal buildability.
The mark one dwell wheel is ready now for its test: See that it fits and stays on-center on the upside down distributor.
For easy reading, carefully scribe or "Sharpy" in the dwell arcs described far above in this thread.
Make your pointer...the complete slob can just bend a paperclip and install under condenser bracket screw. Better, make up a bolt to fit the precision hole, the one nearer to the vac brake. Probably a typical 5/16 bolt with a layer of Coke can metal around shoulder to replicate shoulder diameter of the special Ford bolt. Wheel rim overlaps bolt holes, so use bolt that ends right below wheel and make a line on it with chisel or file.
First, get your rotation as seen from rear RIGHT, not always easy...
As seen from front, distributor rotates CCW. Mark the correct direction on the back with the sharpy so you have one thing fewer to screw up.
From the zero, mark off 22.5 degrees in direction of rotation...from the BACK, this is CW.
This arc represents Right Point closed period. Now Back Up 9 degrees, from there mark off another 22.5 forward...this is left point. Check your total...should be 36 degrees of point closedness. When the right point closes, coil starts to charge up...when the left opens, the total circuit is broken and spark fire. Then nothing happens for 9 degrees, then whole thing starts over...got it??
To set up, gap the points; block each in turn by putting a piece of clean paper into the set, measure dwell of each, adjust to your satisfaction. then leave both operational and test overall dwell.
Testing is done by test light, either a commercial continuity tester or a Radio Shack battery box and bulb...one end of circuit clipped to primary terminal, other to case. As the world turns, light will be ON if either or both points are closed, OFF when both are open.
If dwell and gap aren't both pretty close to spec, something is RONG. If one point has to be significantly off spec to bring combined total to 36 degrees, something else is wrong.

 

The degree wheel I used for the above, which is a touch over 4":
Home Depot tape measure/ruler section.
4"dial #104, accessory for "The original true angle", which is basically two rules pivoted together. You need only the dial.
Bigger is better for protractors, but bigger than this will require adding in a stand for distributor so you can hold everything and have a pointer.
This one also only costs about $3.00.
I consider it a good find, as desk protractors are rare in full-round form and generally have cutaway centers requiring them to be mounted on another disc for this sort of thing.