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Is there any wyotech or other auto trade school teachers out there

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by eddytheb, Feb 17, 2009.

  1. CrazyUncleJack
    Joined: Feb 11, 2009
    Posts: 140

    CrazyUncleJack
    Member
    from OK

    This is a "Generation Y" problem your dealing with, and you're either going to have to hire 30+ employees, or learn new management techniques.

    These young whippersnappers (I'm 37...) are so coddled they expect everything handed to them. They really get convinced that taking those classes will make them into immediate master level craftsmen. These kids come out of college, and with no experience have extreme expectations of what they should GET, and if all doesn't go right they don't know what to do but throw a tantrum and quit.

    This is just a generational problem. I work in an office environment and have the same trouble just trying to get somebody to run a copy machine and show up every day. My mother-in-law is an HR person at a big corporation, and it's driving her crazy trying to get young people that understand what working is anymore.

    It's very hard to pick out the ones who do have some potential, but when you find one you have to be more of a mentor, than just a boss. Perhaps you have some old patient guys on staff who could use the newbie more as an assistant so they can learn the workflow of your projects without the stress of being responsible for it right off the bat?
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2009
  2. I'm an equipment mechanic, (backhoes, loaders, compressors, etc..) and I went to a trade school back in the '70's. I got great grades, did all of my work and tried real hard, but the fact of the matter is that NO school will replace experiance! In no way was I able to do the taskes asigned to me at the time. The best, if not the only way to realy learn a trade is by doing it for years. after over 30 years doing the same work at 5 differant jobs I still learn things.
    On the issue of hiring employees, I have done this also, made some good choices and some bad. It does cost alot to hire a newcommer, it costs more to hire the wrong newcommer. All you can do is try to ask all the questions you can think of, tring to get into the personal side of a new employee ( it says alot about what type of person he or she is) but be carefull and don't cross the lines. if you know what I mean. Once you make your choice you will have to stick with it, some times for longer than you may want to. It is up to you, the employer, to match the employee to the task, you must mold him into the person with the skills you need. The other problem is that once he has some marketable skills he will want to leave, and you must start over again. Not easy is it?
    I think one thing that most of us can agree with, is that less and less young people are willing to do the type of work that they get dirty doing. So with a smaller pool of people to pull from, it will just get harder to find a valuable employee. If you find one, try to train and keep him. (oh, or her)
    just my rant, sorry to ramble on
    Tom
     
  3. gr8ness13
    Joined: Aug 28, 2008
    Posts: 405

    gr8ness13
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I have kinda noticed that everyone on here bitchin is from east of colarodo.? But I really think it is all on the person.

    You know even after growing up in a badass shop with a badass father Chip Foose still took his education to the next stepl to put himself on that next level.
     
  4. weldtoride
    Joined: Jun 14, 2008
    Posts: 259

    weldtoride
    Member

    A valuable question, for new employee and employer alike.

    I am retired auto teacher high school and also spent several years as an ASE certified tech. I apprenticed in 1974 at a Ford dealer right out of school, was full of new emerging electronic ignition theory and had learned how to do valve jobs, etc. I promptly went to work on the dealerships undercoating rack, the dirtiest, most thankless job there. I blew black tar snot every evening, it was in my ears, everywhere. The only tool I seemed to used was a 1/2" drill and tons of rags. Nobody told me in community college auto classes that I would someday be in a car trunk with a flashlight looking for the water leak, while the washrack kid sprayed water, or about all the times that I would have to tear apart a B pillar uphosltery trying to stop a squeek or rattle. But I had worked enough jobs before that to know that any employer wants to know your work ehtic, and work ethic can only be shown over time. After I established a history of showing up on time, did what I was told, didn't drive customer cars like I stole them, etc., I was moved to a rack in new car prep, and then on to warrantee work, and eventually to commission. Later, as a line mechanic at a Porsche/AUdi dealer I saw many apprentices come thru, most from WYO tech actually, because of their rep, but the dissilusionment at being assigned the lowest tasks was always there. The fact remains that the employer has to find out a new guys work ethic before he puts that guy to work on a customer car when its the owners rep and $$$ at stake. Just because a kid went here or there doesn't qualify him as a great employee. And as you employers out there know, there are also plenty of dishonest employees that need to be sorted out.

    Later as a teacher, I actually was able to help place one of my hs students after he graduated from WYO into the same Porsche/Audi store I worked in years before, but I made sure to warn him about all the menial tasks ahead. Another valuable heads-up for apprentices: a mention about being accepted by the other wrenches in the shop. right or wrong, from my experiences at 4 different dealerships and half a dozen service stations from back in the day when they fixed cars, not sandwiches, there sometimes exists sometimes a certain amount of hazing, and minimally, the old guys will be judging the new guy, especially the shiny new kid. Maybe its fair, maybe not, but it is what it is and someone needs to clue young kids in to it.

    As a high school shop teacher and work-study coordinator for high school kids, I made sure my students knew that the road to workplace acceptance is not an expressway. Thats the kind of lesson taught in a work-study classroom, but unfortunately not often enough in a tech classroom. Every new employee has to pay his due.
    Thats life.
    Even here, at my age, I still have to wear the "FNG" tag for a time.
     
  5. 29nash
    Joined: Nov 6, 2008
    Posts: 4,544

    29nash
    BANNED
    from colorado

    Horse-feathers. Every generation has idiots, slackers , and whiners. The strong always survive. The let-down, if there is one, and it's their own falult, is the shops that don't take on 'apprentices', are just too damned lazy to have a training program for new employees, not because they can't but because they are too selfish. We don't hear any shops that are successful because they're too busy with their work, but they exist, they have vision don't have a problem. Somebody used "Foose" as an example; Ha, Foose don't have any problems because he knows the drill. I know for a fact that Foose is a hands on type of boss, and takes the time to train somebody if skill is lacking. I can guarantee you that If I was still in business I wouldn't even be here talking about this, I would simply be blowing this off as a whiner problem.


    Of course that's the way it's always been, since Ben Hur went to get his broke charriot wheels fixed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2009
  6. 29nash
    Joined: Nov 6, 2008
    Posts: 4,544

    29nash
    BANNED
    from colorado

    You and I are different. I would have said "screw the meeting" and crawled down there and showed him how to change the starter, Just because he didn't know how don't make him a bad mechanic.........................
     
  7. CrazyUncleJack
    Joined: Feb 11, 2009
    Posts: 140

    CrazyUncleJack
    Member
    from OK


    I agree every generation has it's whiners, but tack on "A trophy just for participating" in sports, schools refusing to give F's, or use Red Ink because it's scary, and that's just the beginning. Every kid is a winner now without having to do anything. Sure, instilling confidence is a great thing, but if they haven't had to handle failure until their first day on the job, we're just raising ticking time bombs.

    Maybe it's just trendy to bash Gen Y now, but there's a lot of information out there on the issue. For example... http://www.management-issues.com/2008/1/31/research/generation-y-are-unmotivated-slackers.asp

    Oh, and hell yeah, mgmt of many shops could probably stand to use a training program to replace talent. At the least they need some standards so that a supervisor can document problems and get rid of a lazy person via procedure if he/she doesn't have the authority to just fire them on the spot. Having a supervisor with no authority to reprimand just puts the moral of the workplace in the crapper.
     
  8. eddytheb
    Joined: Sep 2, 2008
    Posts: 125

    eddytheb
    Member

    Ok a training program sounds all warm and fuzzy but do we just pass the costs of that on to the customer LOL do we eat it and pay the kids $8.50 to learn on our customers cars when we are only getting $44.00 per hour in the collision shop. I really don't see how a small shop can afford to pay some guy that has no clue what he's doing and have him work with one of the producers and slow him down. Then be there to console him when he finds out he's paying $250.00 a month student loans and hes not what he thought he was.
    I am very upset over this and so is my best guy we liked this kids passion but he left for lunch and have not heard from him in days. I didnt so much as raise my voice I even let him use all my tools offered to pay for his gas to get here and back. But the only thing he will remember is im the guy that crushed his dreams.

     
  9. gr8ness13
    Joined: Aug 28, 2008
    Posts: 405

    gr8ness13
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yeah I used foose as a example becuase he strived to know all he could about the industry he could! And yeah he will get hands on with somebody to help show the way. Also I know for a fact after talking to him he hires Wyotech students so doesRad rides by troy...One of his shops best fabricator is was a Wyotech grad.I just hope when finish I don't run into allot of people that won't look at hiring me because where I chose to go to school I already am going have enough problems with the way the economy is going here in Coruptofornia!
     
  10. gr8ness13
    Joined: Aug 28, 2008
    Posts: 405

    gr8ness13
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Man you should not feel bad Sou ds like you went above and beyond some people are just flakes!
     
  11. Linetech
    Joined: Dec 1, 2007
    Posts: 53

    Linetech
    Member

    Ok I have read all the posts and now I'll add my 2 cents.I have been a auto mechanic for 40 years I started out pumping gas,which they don't seem to do any more.The owner of the station knew I loved cars and started showing me how to do some things.This is how I started but cars were much easier to work on and people took the time to give hands on training.Todays world makes that tuff to do for the shop owner who has bills to pay and dead lines to meet.Enter these tech schools,in my opinion they lie to these young guys telling them they are going to make big bucks and be treated like kings.Lets face it nobody starts at the top.The other problem is they have to have basic skills to do the chosen job.You have to start with hands on and alot of it to make it today.Anybody who shells out the money these schools demand and think they don't have to pay their dues by hard work and sweat is either stupid or crazy.
     
  12. bluestang67
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 589

    bluestang67
    Member

    I have a long one here started cutting school in 8th grade to go to a family body shop to learn . Sanded many a car back then and learned some great stuff . This got me management jobs at dealer shops in my late 20s which was even greater I learned a lot more for the nine years when I did this . In one shop I had 2 wyo tech grads who had a couple years experience already when I hired in as manager. I was amazed at the detail of work they both did and the speed in which they could do it . So again I and all the shop owners know some can be hacks and some can turn out to be pro builders . But we do need to get them in the door to see how good they are . Post 29 has a great thought as with others give them a test to see the talent .

    I had to take a test to get into a factory back 14 years ago . Now I am Mechanical Skilledtrades there for the last 10 years . I had previous college from the 80s in a few different apprentice programs .

    My middle son was in ITT tech here locally and I teach him the real work in my garage when we have the oppurtunity on my cars or his . They get some time with hands on but not near enough . He does have the drive because this is what he wants to do for a living . When i see scars on his knuckles I know he is doing something .

    My love for autos is great with alot of all around experience but I keep it a hobby .
     
  13. Snipe
    Joined: Oct 21, 2005
    Posts: 81

    Snipe
    Member

    I think it all gets back to our society. Today. our kids go to school and receive "kudos" for almost any average performance.....Gold stars.......smiley faces.......etc. They go home and mom and dad tell them how wonderful they are (gotta build up that self esteem ya know). So most of these kids set off to the job market, believing all the bullshit they've been fed all of their life. When their employer tells them they're not performing up to par, it's probably the first time they've heard the cold hard truth.

    But, I have more..............

    Just go into most any classroom and behold the chaos. Teacher talking (teaching?), kids talking to one another and cutting up. God help the teacher who tries to bring a little discipline to the class! OK....I'm starting to sound like a school Nazi now but, you get the idea.

    Some students who really want to learn are hampered by this kind of learning environment but manage to actually lean something in spite of it.
    And furthermore..............OK....OK I'm done. I feel a little better now :)

    Snipe
     
  14. auto shop
    Joined: Aug 20, 2005
    Posts: 284

    auto shop
    Member
    from kentucky

    29Nash I agree with what you are saying. My students clean up their shop and tools every day not the janitor. I wish that I had the funding to give my students in the class all of the steel to complete a great project but it is hard to do with 2.500 $ a year budget. When my student work on something in the shop I tell them that I expect only the best work possible and if it does not satisfy me they will work on it until it does and it works correctly. I have real car repaires not trainers. On the First day of class I tell them what I expect and this not a glamors career. If you decide to make a living working on cars you will start at the bottom and it depends on how hard you work to get to the top. The students that I have working in shops are trained that if you have time to lean you need to clean.They did not hire you to take up air space in the shop. I do not claim to be a great teacher but I try to make the students experience as close to real life as possible. I have failed several students and a few have thanked me for the wakeup call. I look at my class a helping hand to get these stundents in to a shop to make a good employee. That 100 more example sounds great but I can only do what I can . Thanks for the input.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2009
  15. weldtoride
    Joined: Jun 14, 2008
    Posts: 259

    weldtoride
    Member

    Auto Shop,

    I agree. Sounds like you are doing the right things. But as someone told me when I started teaching that its like the old throw it against the wall test for spaghetti. Sometimes it sticks, sometimes it falls on the floor.
     
  16. eddytheb
    Joined: Sep 2, 2008
    Posts: 125

    eddytheb
    Member

    I know not all the youth are bad, I don't believe that there are no good ones out there and not every hiring experience has to be or has been bad. I did have one young guy 4 years ago come in after I fired his girl friend a Barren institute super star (NOT) see had told me here boyfriend had also gone for auto body and he worked second sift at a body shop near the school and would soon be moving back to the area. I told her to tell him to come see me and sure enough he did and all full of piss and vinegar. He was with use for a little over two years we had him painting, buffing, doing body work even working on few of the Cobra builds, he was great. We could not have been happier with him even made sure his parents knew just how pleased we were with him and that they should be proud. He was given raises with out him asking, I matched all his tools purchases (if he paid $20 I paid $20 a week to each tool man) I bought him his lunch every day and paid his student loan each month that he was there. The wife and I Would go to his birthday parties and over with gifts for him and his family on the holidays. One day he says to me I want to move to California to be a rock star and was moving with a few friends at the end of the month. We attended his going away party gave him money to go and gift cards for food along the way. I spent two days helping him work on his truck doing a new clutch and brakes, oil change, tune up, flush everything we could so he would have a safe trip. Part of me was hoping he would be back in a few weeks and back to work with a new out look and part of me wanted to just chain him to the lift and never let him go. My wife cried when he was leaving (Ok I welled up a bit to) it was real hard to see someone good and that we had invested time in go and that had done us right by our investment. All his friend bailed on him and his friends out there in the west were not there for him like they said they would be so I got a text from his sister 7 days after he had left that he was coming home. I had been texting him everyday he was making his trip and he was sending me hot chicks one the beach pics and cool car pics from out there. As soon as I found out he was coming home I told him he had a job as soon as he wanted to start. He was with us for about 6 months after that but he was a different person he was a broke man. Everything had changed even his parents and sister were puzzled over the changes. I put him right back doing the things he was when he left but he could not even come close to the work ethic that he had before the trip. I thought I was heart broken before now I was speechless and shocked that I had lost one of the best guy twice.
    I remember having countless conversation on his schooling and that he learned more at night working at a body shop out there. I had to show him a lot but he was a fast learner and I really felt that the time I was spending was paying off . This is only one of many guys that have come and gone and by fare one of the best out of the box. As a shop owner and a person with feelings the hiring and firing process is a real hard one to deal with. I hate both yes that's right I even hate the firing part even when there total ass holes and I have had my share. The episodes from the other day that made me post this really got to me bad and I cant stop trying to find a way to make something good come of it. I feel I have been put in a real shit spot by the schools and the students. I feel I have been set up to do the part that no one had the balls to do be it the school, teachers, consolers or the parents or who ever. I feel that some how people think I can pay for the time wasted on everyone that wants a job, to be the one to train, school and make them what the schools and parents should have and that I have no problem breaking there hearts and that I like doing it. So days I really go home with a heavy heart over just trying to do what I am so very passionate about and trying to help others live there dreams be the car they always wanted or to work on some of the coolest rides around.
    I really want to say I really appreciate this tread having such a good response rate and that this is a topic that I am not alone in. I found my self running to check it every time I was waiting for filler to dry ( yes I am a working owner) as I did body work today. I really needed to got it out there and see how others feel about it thanks for the help.

    Thanks for reading the HAMB rocks
     
  17. auto shop
    Joined: Aug 20, 2005
    Posts: 284

    auto shop
    Member
    from kentucky

    Eddytheb Sorry that happened to you but it's not your fault. Sounds like you are the boss that I have always been looking for.
     
  18. kidzintha34fodor
    Joined: Feb 12, 2009
    Posts: 408

    kidzintha34fodor
    Member

    I graduated Wyo-Tech in 97(auto collision/refinishing and custom paint) I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying! When I was going to school, there were the guys who were there to learn and some to @#&*-off on mommy and daddy's dime. I put in all that I had and learned everything that I could and graduated in the top 10 of my class. I came home and a week later had a job in a production shop. I'll admit that the teachers didn't prepare us for the fast pace of production shops, but I did have the basics to work my way up! I worked in the autobody field until the chemicals got to me! I just do it for my self now! I'm sure there may be some kids comming out of these tech schools that are worth somthing, but I'm positve you still have the kids who were just screwing off! and unfortunately sounds lilke you got one or maybe more of the the later! With anything in life, you are going to get out what you put in! and if these kids are just handed everything from mom and dad and don't even have to break a sweat! then they won't make it far in life or hot rodding!!
     
  19. weldtoride
    Joined: Jun 14, 2008
    Posts: 259

    weldtoride
    Member

    The questions behind this thread beg a bigger question:

    Who will train the skilled tradespeople of the future?

    As anyone remotely familiar with schools knows, high school trade programs are disappearing at an alarming rate, union apprenticeship positions are as endangered as the unions themselves, and many employers either cannot afford, or choose not to train. So what's a young kid to do? They can't all join the military.

    And what's an employer to do? Its expensive to hire away the experienced guys from your competitor. Expensive to hire the wrong guy. Expensive to invest in a new guy for 2 years only to have your competitor hire him away from you.

    Kudos to the older guys out there who learned by the seat of their pants from even older guys willing and patient enough to share. But today's technologies take an awful lot of sharing to get it done that way, The cars I learned on in my high school days in the late 60s are not today's cars as everyone here knows.

    Auto service and repair is one high tech job that so far at least, can't be shipped overseas, why aren't we investing more in this area of education? There are other skilled trades that share this problem.
     
  20. TDC
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 35

    TDC
    Member

    I went to UTI right after high school. It was geared so damn near anyone could pass. But on the otherhand, if you kept your ears open and applied yourself, you could learn a lot. Even I managed to graduate at the top of my class. Book smart not wrench smart. The ony thing I wish it had was a rule that you must work in a real automotive shop like an apprienticeship. I belive someone mentioned this earlier. Just not enough time spent in an actual shop environment.

    At any rate, if I had actually worked in a shop for any length of time during my training, I probably wouldn't have finished myself. I soon realized it wasn't for me after I got my diploma. I would rather make my own mistakes than fix another persons(read engineer). So I got an apprenticeship for Tool and Die.

    Josh
     
  21. auto shop
    Joined: Aug 20, 2005
    Posts: 284

    auto shop
    Member
    from kentucky

    We always want are child to do better than we did. I think we have found the reason that some young people want it on a silver plater as long as you hand it to them. Not to say that all young people are like that because I see very hard working students every day and most are from hard working family's.
     
  22. Low
    Joined: Jan 28, 2002
    Posts: 477

    Low
    Member

    Well I went to WyoTech, when I was 20 about 6 years ago. I had always loved cars but never had the chance besides auto shop in HS to learn. I learned a shitload, and made some friends I will have for the rest of my life. This is what I am doing now. I'll let the pictures speak for themselves.

    a couple chops
    [​IMG]
    before [​IMG]
    after
    [​IMG]
    some floor work
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    leading
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    chassis work
    [​IMG]

    and yep, I learned how to do all of it at WyoTech.
     
  23. eddytheb
    Joined: Sep 2, 2008
    Posts: 125

    eddytheb
    Member

    LOW anyone else in your classes make anything of them selfs? It sure looks like your one of the gifted ones god speed my friend
     
  24. eddytheb
    Joined: Sep 2, 2008
    Posts: 125

    eddytheb
    Member

    So lets say junior fresh out of school full of life, dreams of hot rods and a fresh passion comes thought the door or even if I reach out to the last little guy we had, what would be a reasonable program for them to get training in my shop and what would be a reasonable cost for the shop owner. Remember its a out of pocket for the shop owner we can not pass it along to the customer that just not fare. Should there be a contract with a time that they had to stay so they just don't get some time in and move to the next shop after you do the training and pay for its costs.
     
  25. 29nash
    Joined: Nov 6, 2008
    Posts: 4,544

    29nash
    BANNED
    from colorado

    eddytheb; On a personal note. If all shop foremen were as interested in doing right by their employees as you sound like, the world would be a better place!

    But, that said, each employee is responsible for his own actions and his own attitude. You OWE him the truth, when he is failing.

    I suggest that you just loosen up a half-turn and concentrate on the good that's going on around you. If the guy that left blames you, then you should be thrilled that he left, because people that blame others, for their mistakes have no business working for a decent person. He has to wear the truth.

    Instead of you being sad and somehow feeling empathy for his failure, you should be PISSED OFF AS HELL for his inconsiderate actions of just leaving without any explaination.

    Keep on keepin' on.....................
     
  26. havi
    Joined: Dec 30, 2008
    Posts: 1,876

    havi
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    here, here
     
  27. HighSpeed LowDrag
    Joined: Mar 2, 2005
    Posts: 968

    HighSpeed LowDrag
    Member
    from Houston


    One of the things that I have have learned over the years is that the automotive school grads think that they come into the work force as something more than an apprentice. In my day, it was a 4 or 5 year journey from apprenticeship to journeyman at which point you were entrusted with doing jobs on your own. Even then you were checked upon by the foreman/manager on a daily/hourly basis.

    Today 9 out of 10 of these kids haven't been taught the basics that will allow then to take the next step towards what I would consider a journeyman. They have had it pounded into their heads that they are they greatest thing since sliced bread yet, they are unable do tasks that they should be able to do without any supervision.

    2 out of 10 of these kids realize that they din't have the skills that school told them they did. Out of these 2 kids, 1 might make it if he adapts to the theory that , no, he doesn't have all of the knowledge that he needs to earn a decent paycheck.

    Over the years I've had a few schooled newbies that had the potential to be extremely good. Almost every single one of them had a head that was too big for then hat. They came out of a 30K school program and knew more about everything than I did even though I had 25 years more experience.


    My advice would be to take off your "good samaratan" hat and put on your "businesman" hat.


    Sad, ain't it?
     
  28. My49Plymouth
    Joined: Nov 24, 2008
    Posts: 160

    My49Plymouth
    Member

    The guy that works for me screwed up a job yesterday - cementing some graphite blocks together - so today he has to redo the job (rush job, machine shop is waiting because the the customer needs it yesterday type thing) and he goes to screw it up again - luckily this time I spent 2 hours in his hip pocket - saw his screw up and got it fixed ... and by the way he has 40 years of experience ... moral of the story - some people just suck and always will!
     
  29. weldtoride
    Joined: Jun 14, 2008
    Posts: 259

    weldtoride
    Member

    "Quote.....Should there be a contract with a time that they had to stay so they just don't get some time in and move to the next shop after you do the training and pay for its costs...."

    I know of a shop that gives longevity bonuses, in the form of tool credits (I assume this is to improve tax write off over pay) to apprentices after every 12 months of service.
     
  30. I am a current student at the Laramie Wyoming campus and I've been here for a little over a year. I've taken collision/refinishing, street rod, chassis fab, and am now in trim and upholstery. I am the top of my class and have maintained a 98 percent average throughout all my classes. My instructors also appointed me as an Eagle tech (a group of student who the school believes are not only the top of their class but also leaders) I also won the top honor the school gives when I went through street rod and I was lucky enough to work on some great projects including the barracuda that the school overhauled for a military veteran. I've only given these examples because even though I've done well here I know I still have ALOT to learn. I think I would make a great entry level fabricator anywhere I go. I believe I'm one of very few though. Most of the kids here just dont give a damn about their grade point average or their attendance. I also know some of the kids get handed a passing grade. Maybe just to get the kids out the door. They all wanna be the next Jesse James or Chip Foose right outta school but dont realize it took hard work to get to where they are. Some get fed a pipe dream from their recruiters and some have the notion that "everyone can be THAT good" fed to them by mommy and daddy and todays nobody's a loser society. It could be because I'm a little older (30) but I appreciate the time I have in class and the good instructors I've had. Honestly....If I had my own shop I probably wouldnt hire a student from here unless I've talked to his/her instructors. They know their work ethic so far and what they're capable of. SO FAR.

    my couple of cents
     

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