Too late to start another project, but taking a Lotus 11 from 1959 and fitting a 1926-27 T roadster body and hood to it would make for a nice road car IMO. Bob
My little banger is too new, and from the wrong country. But it has an engine with a carb, four wheels and brakes. I come here to see guys make something great from nothing, and see people do things I could probably never do. That said, I will never get tired of an old roadster or coupe. It isn't in my nature. More importantly, I like the people associated with them. It isn't just about the cars, it is about the people you meet on the way. People will drift in and out of this hobby, and many will walk out, only to return later. It doesn't have to be forever either way. I remember the days when all you got was a couple of magazines a month, and maybe a car show or two a year. Maybe you knew a few guys who loved cars. You couldn't get enough, because there never was enough, and cars and parts were sometimes on thin ground. I see people sometimes suffering from too much of a good thing today. That doesn't mean anything should change here. It isn't always about what you like or what you are tired of. Sometimes it is about offering advice or encouragement, or just being one of the guys. It is easy to confuse what we do with who we are. Then it becomes easy to be disappointed. It isn't the hobby that is bored. Go to enough car shows alone, and talk to no one, and you may get bored quick. Do enough wrenching alone without sharing it, and you may get bored with that too. It is as much about the people we meet as it is about the cars. A lot of us fulfilled our car dreams and our garage dreams many times over. I see things fresh in the eyes of a newcomer, or even just talking to people on a nice day who remind us why we love what we love. I can't do it alone. I don't want to. Sometimes it seems easier to sit at home and do nothing, thinking sorry thoughts.. But moving a muscle or reaching out is where disappointment ends and life starts. If this hobby is making you tired, find something or someone that doesn't. Just realize that there is still plenty left here for anyone who wants it, whenever they are ready. But it was never just about the cars, as great as they are.
I wonder? Could a "traditional" EFI be pulled off? I'm sure it could. In fact I've just spent a day trying to imagine how, and I'm thinking analog/servo logic rather than digital/cybernetic logic, discrete components on PC board: basically state-of-the-art hi-fi tech c.1960. It's EFI but on a cold morning you turn up the mixture a bit by twisting the knob on a potentiometer on the dash ... What I'm saying is that that "traditional feel or flair" is not going to be convincing unless it runs deeper than the surface. It struck me that the very separation of the aesthetic from the substance which seems to come so easily and naturally to us today is itself foreign to the traditional feel or flair. That ends up in retro the way the OEMs do it, and that fleeting glimpse or elusive taste gets ever thinner and weaker until it disappears entirely. The idea of simulacrum, the idea that the world is divided into a visible user interface and an invisible realm of what @Mart recently described with the delightful word gubbinry underneath it, into a show put on especially for you and a backstage where you aren't welcome, is something which came with popular computing. You can't see a microchip working; you can understand what it's doing only through a projection into a pre-constructed perceptible medium set up for that purpose, by somebody ― and the more you interact with stuff which requires that kind of understanding, the more you're inclined to expect the entire world to work like that. It's a fairly radically unprecedented way to see the world. I don't know about anyone else, but my approach to the "traditional" is very much a revolt against that cluster of ideas. It isn't in my nature to be satisfied with "If you know, you know." I have a need to put my finger on what exactly it is that I know, and how. And the more I do that the more aware I am that for the "traditional" vibe to be convincing it has to be "traditional" all the way through. By that I don't mean "historically precedented"; it might be wholly unprecedented ― i.e. innovative. I mean that in the technological ethos we here call "traditional" there are no hiding places ― none, at least, that a screwdriver or ⅜" socket couldn't deal with in short order. Not only can you get in there, you're supposed to be able to get in there. It's all public domain. It's all stage; there is no backstage. I think people sense this, and that is how "if they know, they know". Not that they didn't try. But the technology didn't allow for it in 1958. Oldsmobiles looked like spacecraft that year, but GM didn't yet have the tech to stop the (perfectly honest) farm truck from shining through. Ford might have goofed with the Edsel, but imagine if they'd tried to seal the steering column ... I'm trying very hard not to write a PhD thesis here. But you'll see how, once you start unpacking all this stuff, "extremely hard to moderate" becomes an understatement.
I am enjoying this post for sure. My take on it is simple but not simple. I am a traditional guy and i have tried to make a career of being that guy. My biggest problem with it is i was putting out hot rods that looked just like every other hot rod and that bothered me. So at a certain point i started thinking outside the box and how to change things up a bit without changing things up to much. My personal opinion is the dash is the personality of the car. Sure you can collect some super pricey SW crescent needle gauges but so does a lot of other guys… make it your own some how. I love mashing up a few different dash panels to create something no has done before. I also love super tiny rear view mirrors off European cars and i try to find them all the time, i put them in my cars and I own it. I don’t care if i am judged for not putting a more traditional mirror. That’s one of the reasons i make the shifter knobs i make is so that someone can have something that’s personal to them or different then every other car. I have tried to do this with the air scoops i make. There’s only a handful of “traditional air cleaners” and frogs mouths so i set out with a design that i feel didn’t look out of place on a hot rod. It is not “vintage” but it looks like it could have been made for the last 75 years. Inspiration leads me to everything i do. Another example is my race car, it started here on the Hamb and 20 years later I am trying to keep it alive here. My inspiration for my car is obviously the Chrisman coupe and from 20 feet back it looks like i just copied it or built a replica. The truth couldn’t be further from that though. I take and took inspiration from everywhere. I don’t care what car or era or country or culture when your inspired your inspired… with that i changed many things about my car from the Chrisman from front engine to body lines and way way more. Sure i could have painted the car root beer color like many asked over the years. But i always said no why wouldn’t i do that? If you take a minute to study any car or design you can be inspired by something.
I like the past. I didn't grow up in it, but I'm immersed in it. I'm not here to reinvent the wheel, just bask in the sliver of light cast from a few decades of time.
The 'off topic forum' comment got me to mulling this over, but I waited to see what other comments would show up. But before I expound on that, I will note your 'elitist' statement. There's nothing wrong will having that ideal, but it's not a particularly good business model for a semi-mass-market web page... LOL. While there's probably a couple of handfuls of guys here that could or have made the cut at say Pebble Beach, most of us will never be more than spectators any time soon for various reasons, particularly the younger guys with kids/families (or older guys paying too much alimony to ex-wives...). I think you subconsciously know that, that's the 'wishy-washy' aspect... LOL. On to the 'new' forum idea. A number of years ago you briefly experimented with a 'traditionally inspired' forum but it quickly disappeared, primarily because of moderation issues IIRC. Good idea, not so good execution. So the first thing is retain the traditionally inspired definition and don't change the year cut-off. With respects to @BamaMav, letting in street freaks and muscle cars won't improve the site IMO. The street freaks are already here (how many faux 'gassers' have been posted here, jacked to the sky because they didn't radius the rear wheel wells like a real gasser? Well more than a few...) and the muscle car boys have marque/model-specific sites in abundance. While I have some affinity for these cars, I've seen enough numbers-matching Camaros or uber-rare whatevers... So the real key is moderating this. This actually presents an opportunity for you to indulge your elitist ideal. With a 'looser' forum, you could tighten the guidelines in the traditional forums. The one issue I've had is the guidelines IMO aren't all that clear and I'm not the only one who can get confused. Sometimes this feels like hiding your Playboy from Mom (Ryan)... LOLOL Here's my thoughts for this forum. I've broken this down into categories for clarity. Engines. Move the cut-off to 1970. That brings in the late '60s Ford/Buick/Olds/Caddys and the late Hemi. These are already here but in a 'grey market' sort of way, let's open the door. It might even OK to allow some late-model 4 cylinders in for the banger guys, but that may be a bridge too far for some. Carbureted with a distributor required. Advanced electronics. Related to the above. This would be very tough one. If you can make it invisible, why not. But achieving that won't be easy or cheap. Best I can offer here is it'll have to pass a 'trad' test and the decision of the judge is final. Photos in advance of posting highly recommended. Transmissions/rear axles. Everybody seems to be using what they can get or want, no changes here. Brakes/suspension swaps. This is where it gets contentious. This really needs to be broken into two categories; 1935 back or anything w/o fenders (except radical show rods), and 1936-up full-fendered. If building an early-style car, the mechanical bits are a big part of their look, and a newer suspension swap will radically alter it's looks. A chrome Jag or Corvette under a Deuce isn't traditional, fenders or not. If you want it to look traditional, it had better present as such. On the later cars, if you have to lay on the ground to see the suspension, it shouldn't make any difference unless you're planning on displaying it jacked up with mirrors. One thing I would like to see is some encouragement towards 'junkyard solutions' rather than 1-800 parts. Brakes are a bit different. With an early car, upgrading to '40s/50s era drums is a real improvement as they were installed on mostly heavier cars or even trucks. But those heavier later cars don't really have any better drums to install unless you start chasing some very rare parts. Even if brought back to like-new operation, they can be very marginal in some of today's traffic. That's why discs started appearing in the early '60s in recognition of that fact. I see both of these as safety issues. Some of us have some pretty nasty local driving conditions, anything that can make the car more nimble or stop better is a big plus. Again, a lot of this is going on anyway, ignoring it won't make it go away. And may allow eliminating some of the poorer ideas. And this may also produce some 'cross pollenating', livening up all forums. Anyway, that's my .50 worth....
@Crazy Steve, I wasn't suggesting add that to here, what we have is fine. I was suggesting a separate forum like Garage Journal and Ford Barn are, stand alone companion sites. While I don't have anything right now that would fit a late 70's cutoff, many guys do. Set up the same way with rules and limits to control content. 100 point restorations aren't my bag either, but well modified cars are.
Hmmm... 'Horology'. (the study of watches/time.) Ryan delved into some 'horology' in a pursuit of "The real Von Dutch". Thankfully, the mystique of "The Flying Eyeball" was exposed. We're all the better for it.
Great example of well-wrought innovation and style and may I add timeless . The eye and inspiration dances on them
I agree inovation does step on rules and so life goes even with laws of the land and who makes these changes in HotRod car history ? The guy in the garage with nothing but his tools and creativity and whatever else is in fingers reach as the helping companions . The Freddie &Flo Project is going to have different things and Ryan mentions F1 cars well they are just EuroRods in my book fenderless , showy and in all their own glory you can't help but to be drawn to them and I am using some of that EuroRod technology and it will be noticable and I am sure HAMBs NonCrusty Members will take notice and think it's cool . Thanks Everyone and Crazy Steve you have a nice day
Traditional HotRod . Does anyone dare conjure a set definition ? Even Google dictionary changed/added a slew of words away from Danny Webster . Here is an automotive world example : Uncle Dick was the first to turbo Offy engines in the 60s and it hauled ass . Did Indy Rulemakers and community tell Uncle Dick , " Oh you gotta race over there you can't race with us . " No they did not they invited his inovation with open arms and it became followed history . If I can come up with HOT Rod inovation at 60 so can the younger generations and what are you going to tell them about their creativity ? Are you going to tell them , " That's nice son but you gotta take it somewhere else . " And literally blow out the founding Ten Commandments of Hot Rodding ? That would put Hot Rodding in it's grave and Pocket Rockets will easily fill the void . I am a for accepting newer Hot Rod tech including all technologies it's how we have survived with our Hot Rod Culture so far . Let the kids in and share their ideas or die being labeled as Krazy Old Wonderful Men
I think the "traditional" idiom creates opportunities to play with alternative technological trajectories, much more so than simply adopting the dominant mainstream paradigm in not-so-obvious ways. I'm wary of dictionary definitions, though. Dictionaries are descriptive rather than prescriptive — at least they ought to be — and so they often lag behind specialized senses of words filtering through to common usage. The HAMB sense of the term "traditional" is very specialized. Pulling in a published dictionary definition is likely to do little more than muddy the waters. There is still scope for interpretative analysis. In fact that's what we'd have to do if we're to construct a definition of the HAMB sense of "traditional" that includes everything it's supposed to and nothing it isn't. Personally I like to see it in terms of tradition as a social information handling system: "passing down from generation to generation," but more like putting a body of knowledge out there for people to build on. The fancy new term is stigmergy, and it's been getting a lot of elaboration recently. So to me it's not so much stuff disseminated according to that process, but stuff which is suitable for disseminating according to that process, i.e. a tech paradigm that invites messing with at a very basic, direct level (or else what would be the point of that freely accessible body of knowledge?) which is basically what we had during the HAMB era. I stretch it to about 1990. In more detail: up to about 1934 all was hunky-dory. From 1934 on there was a concerted programme with power behind it trying to kill that ethos, and that finally succeeded in the early '90s. I've proposed the term contested age for the period 1934-1990 in automotive history.
I have to add to that. Apply the term "traditional" to a hot rod or custom, and it becomes a bit more complex. Sometimes a duck is a duck because of the way it looks, walks, swims, quacks, etc. This kind of definition is more common in the natural sciences. If you've got six protons in the atomic nucleus, you're dealing with carbon, regardless of which of the immense range of forms it's in, what shape it is, or where it came from. At other times a duck isn't a duck unless it hatched out of a duck egg. Definitions in the humanities tend more to be this way. A cultural movement is what it is because of the way it relates to its cultural landscape. You could list things like the blues scale or "blue notes", but what makes the blues the blues is that it talks to the rest of the blues. Without the continuity of A talking to B talking to C, indeed of a tradition in the sense I mentioned before, it becomes something different, a separate phenomenon, regardless of any technical points of similarity. Hot rods and customs are like that. A hot rod is a hot rod because it answers prior hot rods. There is a conversation going on, and for that to happen there needs to be a common language — in this case a design language, a technological language. Now a conversation is not a cantata, and someone who just keeps repeating whatever you say back to you becomes very irritating very quickly. An element of innovation is a given anyway, or there is no tradition. It's the continuity of language which makes for that unmistakable look and feel, the "If you know, you know." So from that I'd propose two requirements for "inspired innovation" in the "traditional" context: 1. That it reflect a "traditional" technological ethos which arises out of the technological palette available during our focus era, and includes among other things the assumption that the usefulness of a thing will depend on a maintenance regimen which cannot be controlled centrally, and therefore requires access; that electrical systems are unlikely to be reliable enough to trust; that numerous mutually independent parties might contribute components and systems; that OEM control ends at the showroom door; etc. and 2. That there be a continuity of design/technological language with what had gone before: not a parroting but a response whose sense depends on what it is answering.
Thank you Ned Ludd I find your post very contributing to the true nature of Traditional Hot Rod and so long as we continue to present the complete history of Traditional Hot Rodding and build our cars accordingly using an artist mind and utilizing newer technologies as an artist/builders ' Secret Spice Recipe ' I truly believe we will be ok . We have A/C now and billet rims and SEMA . Lord I've not been to a SEMA Show yet lol . Not by prejudice it's that I see all that's available at SEMA as ingredients to the ' Spice Recipe ' so to me is no big deal ! It doesn't concern my builds though I may utilize SEMA products . There is a difference in ' upgrading ' a Traditional Rod and actually changing it from what it is . I went to a local car show last Friday and snapped shots of Traditional Hot Rods for my HAMB friends and fellow followers to enjoy . There were other types of cars there also and I can identify them as different than Traditional and the Corvette I snapped could be questionable . Others well I really had to stop and think about two cars in particular but bottom line is that their low rider appearance made them low riders though one car could have got in as a Custom also . Looks like it started as a traditional build then veered off into Car Club Land and that cars build fits into that Car Clubs Rules . We need to teach the history which is what Ryan is doing here and he shows the pictures in his intro thread so we can all identify a Traditional Hot Rod . Back when they were created they were basic little cars with missing parts and swapped out drivetrain pieces . Now we have sprinkled in some modern conveniences and technology is ramping up at a pedal to the metal pace and the time to act is now on throwing in other ' TechniSpices ' . At age 5 I was a victim in a horrific crash and as I learned to build I naturally installed safety features in ALL my car builds . Our injuries were due to no seat belts in the truck it was a 62 Chevy pickup sold legally without seatbelts . So I put belts in parking brake and wrap the inner panels with a type of Armco railing and you can't see it and alot of newer technologies you cannot see either but as you walk up on a Hot. Rod I build it's got Traditional written all over it and it drives like a Traditional . Customs are different to me I haven't studied what Ryan's itinerary is for that yet but to me a Custom is a homogenous build of different types of car builds in one car build like the ones I did not snap a picture of too show . I respect Custom builders like their work but I was raised in Traditional Hot Rod family so it is by nature I build traditional Rods so I can identify with them and fit like a glove in the Traditional Hot Rod World . Thank you for taking time to read and understand this reply . We just need to keep the history alive and available for everyone and I always use the term Everyone in my posts greetings unless I'm quoting Have a good day and keep your foot in it
seems like Ryan has participated more in this thread than in a a long time. Traditional hot rods will always be my first love, probably because of my age. As toddler in the mid-sixties hot rods were in the forefront of public media. All the images on TV and movies left an irreversible imprint on my mind. All the years since then have opened up lots of other interests, and those interests are in a constant state of flux. Maybe the gas crisis of the seventies led to my interest in import cars. Maybe my very “preppy” phase in the eighties led me to “the ultimate driving machine”. I’ve had three, and driven the wheels off them. My current daily is a 7 series, a twin-turbo V8, absolute beast, but I don’t talk about that here. I’m big into motorcycles of all brands and sizes. Started out with Asian as most do. Loved British bikes hard core and now Harley is the ticket. I have a late model Wide Gide that I’m making look like a panhead chopper. Would love to talk about it, but this isn’t the place. I have an awesome 30ft classic boat with twin V8’s. I started learning guitar later than I should have. I could go on and on but I won’t here. The point of the thread is innovation in a traditional genre is a bit of an oxymoron. Are we restorers of classic cars with strict class rules? We don’t think so, but yes, yes we are. I’ve had dreams of a hot rod roadster that could have been built in the 50’s influenced by the sports cars of the time. I’ve never seen another like I have in mind. Long story short, yes there is room for innovation in a traditional medium.
I changed my mind. Dick Kraft built a roadster that is awesome. Maybe mine would only have the front wheels open? Nothing is new, but I could try to make a mark with my interpretation.
What's not brought up is the fact that my Uncle lived with alot of grief and guilt over men he knew on an intimate professional level who were killed while piloting his engines and the ones who were killed trying to keep up with the cars carrying the newest technology . If they allowed the turbine class to reign it would not only kill alot more drivers but also the costs and subsequent other rule changes necessary when changes as monster as that comes into play . I'm sure the oil companies and car manufacturers had their foot over the turbine projects also and eventually STP did pull the plug and never looked back . Today we have e-F1 and it is not with the fuel powered F1 racers . STP should have started and sponsored its own sanctioning body away from the Indy Cars . The point here is that these outcomes stated above is what happens when you go to far in classification changes .
The Jalopy Journal
