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Hot Rods I'M GOING TO BUILD AN ALTERED.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Don's Hot Rods, Oct 4, 2014.

  1. JOECOOL
    Joined: Jan 13, 2004
    Posts: 2,758

    JOECOOL
    Member

    I've been following and I think your doing it right, And you'll have a lot of fun. One thing ,on the front cross member ,I run the tube thru both sides like you did. I weld caps( plugs) in the ends. I weld a nut on the inside and use it for my friction shocks.
    I ran a cheap altered a few years ago. I sold it because although it was fun ,it seemed the full suit ,full helmet ,shield ,gloves and arm restraints got to be a pain. Damn hot also when your waiting in the staging lanes when they have trouble on the line. It mostly requires someone to help and a lot of times I went to the races by myself.
    Keep up the good work.
     
  2. rooman
    Joined: Sep 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,020

    rooman
    Member

    In the non aircraft (etc) world bolts have a standard amount of thread which varies depending on the diameter but usually ranges between 1" for 1/4" diameter up to 1.5" for 1/2" diameter. When a bolt is shorter than that amount it is still a bolt even though it has no shank. AN/NAS/Milspec bolts also have a standard amount of thread but it is just enough to attach the nut (or half nut) and they are sized by the grip (or shank) length.
    For some background on bolts check this out: http://tinelok.com/grade-5-vs-grade-8-fasteners/

    Roo
     
    AHotRod likes this.
  3. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Joecool, that has been a turn off for me too, since I read all the rules in the NHRA book about what I will need to wear. What with the helmet, pants, jacket, gloves, and arm restraints, I am going to feel like an Astronaut ! :eek: I really wish I didn't have to wear all that stuff, even though I know it is safer. All that gear is going to take some of the fun out of it for me for sure.

    Don
     
  4. Back in the days of the silver suits with mask, we sorta looked like a astronaut. Have a silver mask with respirator in my office, kinda a reminder of the good old days.
    SPEEDY
     
  5. flatheadgary
    Joined: Jul 17, 2007
    Posts: 769

    flatheadgary
    Member
    from boron,ca

    my feeling is, it makes it feel like a real race car. a door car just seems like your daily driver.
     
    64 DODGE 440 likes this.
  6. Brad54
    Joined: Apr 15, 2004
    Posts: 6,008

    Brad54
    Member
    from Atl Ga

    When it comes time to set the pinion angle, it seems there are as many opinions on it as there are people asked.
    I'm going to go with what the Chrysler Engineers figured out in their Mopar Performance Chassis Manual. It's designed for racers, and Mopar seemed to have a lot more direct factory-engineering and involvement in race car design than the others.

    Just one man's opinion on a source for a common question.

    -Brad
     
  7. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,094

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    Just remember that if they were using leaf springs and you are using a four link and coil shocks the geometry may be entirely different.
     
  8. rooman
    Joined: Sep 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,020

    rooman
    Member

    Exactly, the Mopar nose down pinion deal was engineered to work with the factory Super Stock style leafs and a pinion snubber was used to control the rotation of the housing. That was also in the days of "separation" where the back of the car rose as it left. Most modern 4 link/ coil over packages are designed to allow the car to squat as it leaves.

    Roo
     
  9. Brad54
    Joined: Apr 15, 2004
    Posts: 6,008

    Brad54
    Member
    from Atl Ga

    The Mopar Performance Chassis Manual has a full section on rear suspensions--all different kinds; leaf spring, 4-link, solid mounted, etc.

    -Brad
     
  10. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Today Dan went to the steel supply shop and picked up some more 2 x 3 tubing so that we could spend the day figuring out just how the rear part of the frame needs to be to hold the 4 link setup. I got the new frame brackets I ordered from Ron at RPM, and also some 1.5 x .120 wall tubing from Applied Racing, so we pretty much had all the steel we needed to get going.

    The design we ended up with is a little unorthodox and different from the street setups we have done, but it looks like it is going to work. The back end of these Bantams is so short it is hard to cram all the stuff under one that you need. In a lot of respects, I wish I had gone with my original plan to run a solid mounted rear, but this will handle much better, I'm sure.

    Here is the mocked up result of our work today. The part that drops down under the frame is needed to let the lower bar lay parallel to the ground, so it drops down quite a bit. But we are going to run an 1.5 round tube out of that will curve up and join onto the bottom of the frame.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The two round holes in the lower part of the mount are for the round tubes I mentioned.......one will run forward to the bottom of the frame, and the other will run over to the other kickdown, into a similar hole in that part. We figure this should tie in the entire rear section pretty well, when all welded up.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Not much of what you see here is permanent, even the bars are scrap leftovers from another project, so it is all just mocked up to get an idea of how the final frame will look. But we did make major progress today, next week we can start prepping and welding it all up and then put it on the frame jig for final welding.

    Don


    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2015
  11. Baron
    Joined: Aug 13, 2004
    Posts: 3,400

    Baron
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Looks good Don. I'd like to see the tubing below the frame shortened about two-two and 1/2 inches and(cut just above the hole that the forward brace will run into), and re-drill that hole higher so that the two pieces of tubing ( the cross tube and forward tube) will intersect. Notch the forward tube to fit the cross tube( as you would with a roll bar).
    Just a suggestion. Keep up the good work.
     
  12. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    It has to drop down that far to allow the lower bar to be parallel to the ground. We actually shortened it up quite a bit by eliminating the wishbone hole in the bottom of that mount. We are relocating it to the round cross tube, and were able to gain about 2 1/2 inches. If it wasn't for the need to make the lower bar parallel, we would have that ability.

    Don
     
    rod1 likes this.
  13. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,431

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    I'm not understanding why you can't just drop the frame rail down to the bottom of the bracket.
     
  14. rooman
    Joined: Sep 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,020

    rooman
    Member

    Are you going to put a drop in the lower cross member for driveshaft clearance or is the trans output high enough that it clears? I normally put the cross tube in line with the lower four link hole and a straight one will clear even with the engine/trans set low. Good to see that you got some frame brackets with an arc in the hole locations--it will make the initial chassis set up a lot easier.

    Roo
     
  15. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,987

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Nice work Don. Are you planning to incorporate a driveshaft hoop or tunnel in the side-to-side tube? that might be a good place to anchor it . I had a driveshaft let go in my avatar car and was glad it was there. That thing seemed to take forever to stop flailing around. I'm glad the tunnel held.

    PS: In a previous email I said I planned to stop by to see your project. Unfortunately I crashed my bike and the doc said 3 - 4 months before I can get back on two wheels. Maybe next winter.
     
  16. Brad54
    Joined: Apr 15, 2004
    Posts: 6,008

    Brad54
    Member
    from Atl Ga

    I'm curious how long your driveshaft is, and if you have loops front and rear? I'm mocking my engine and trans up today, and will get an approximate idea of driveshaft length; At the front, I plan on loop like this one, which mounts between the trans tailshaft mount and its crossmember. At the rear, I have a Mopar 8 3/4 rear with the pinion snubber mounting holes on top of the pinion bearing on the center section, so I'll make a similar one for it at the rear, going forward.
    You said you're glad the tunnel held--do you have one or two driveshaft loops on your car? And surely bars going under the floor are a part of your cage?

    -Brad
     

    Attached Files:

  17. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,987

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    I have full length tunnel made from 4130 chrome moly plate which is welded into a curved 4130 tube welded to the chassis structure. Two-inch wide straps wrap around the bottom. My driveshaft was a 14" aluminum unit that had insufficient weld penetration at the end hub causing it to ultimately rip apart like a hot weenie.

    Any guard is better than no guard but just looking at the way yours is cantilevered off the trans mount I would say 'no' it probably would not have contained my spinning broken driveshaft, the biggest part of which still stayed attached to the output shaft and as such stayed under power until I could let up on the gas and kill the motor. I would add two outrigger mounts to the side to stabilize it.
    Please.
    Don't think it can't happen to you. My d'shaft was a high dollar unit that I thought was overkill and would never fail.
     
  18. Brad54
    Joined: Apr 15, 2004
    Posts: 6,008

    Brad54
    Member
    from Atl Ga

    That's a GREAT idea for the outrigger mounts going to the rails to stabilize it... I'll definitely incorporate those. Thanks for the tip!
    -Brad
     
  19. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Oh yeah, I am going to have a solid tube that covers the top half of my driveshaft and loops below. After all, that thing will be spinning at about 6000 rpms between my legs ! :eek: All of this will be tied into the cage with a bunch of tubes. Dan is putting an almost funny car cage in his Mustang, and he is doing most of my fab work, so it will be a tank. :)

    Don
     
  20. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,987

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    You won't be sorry. I cringe when I see "traditional" vintage drag cars with traditional, outmoded safety stuff make full passes. I've seen it with disastrous results. Build it safe
     
    Babyearl likes this.
  21. rooman
    Joined: Sep 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,020

    rooman
    Member

    Brad,
    I don't have the copies of Hot Rod Deluxe here at the shop to look at your build story but if you have front and mid plates to mount the motor it would be a good idea to lose the trans mount (unless you have the factory rubber unit). If you mount the package rigidly at three points and there is any flex in the frame the extension housing will be the first casualty. I recently had to rework a Bantam altered that had three mounts. He was lucky that the welding on the trans mount tabs was crappy and they gave up before the trans itself. This was a full double rail frame with a reasonable top to bottom spread on the tubes.

    Roo
     
    pitman likes this.
  22. 3wLarry
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 12,804

    3wLarry
    Member Emeritus
    from Owasso, Ok

    patiently waiting
     
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  23. flatheadgary
    Joined: Jul 17, 2007
    Posts: 769

    flatheadgary
    Member
    from boron,ca

    i don't mean to dig up an old thought but, since you decided to go suspended rear, be sure to get a log book to record your adjustments on different tracks. it might not always be right due to temps and weather conditions but, it will give you a place to start. your work sure looks great!!!
     
  24. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 2,963

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    At this level, with the 100's of bar locations, once the sweet spot is set, the bars never change.Only if a customer asked for this (and I could not talk them out of it) would I ever consider building this type set-up on a center steer chassie.
     
  25. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,431

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    When I asked this:
    I was really asking as to why you can't have the frame lower than the bottom of the body, then a belly pan under the driver. Most of the cars pictured in this thread have nothing hanging down below the frame, probably solid axle. I just hate the thought of something hanging down that far below the main frame rail.

    Dreracecar,
    What is the difference in using a 4 link with center steering as opposed to driver left?
     
  26. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 2,963

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Suspention is used to counteract weight bias by the driver being over to one side instead of in the middle where the bias is virtualy equal give or take a couple lbs.. One can adjust for that by either lowering the left front spindle or spacing the rt rear tire out. Seeing how these parts are plane generic, adds to the variables on consistency. Pro stock shocks are very expensive and go thru frequent revalving in order to maintain contact with the track surface at different venues and conditions, somthing the average hobby racer wont deal with because they are not dealing with the same power levels. Replace the shocks with solid struts and it should run the same.
     
  27. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,987

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    I am wondering the same thing. 95% of all Rear Engine Dragster cars being built for Top Sportsman or Super Pro bracket racing are using 4-links. Granted, most of the bar location possibilities will never get used but to just build a couple of points for a nostalgia car and hope you get it right - well, you'd have to be pretty confident of your chassis forecasting abilities, especially in view of the fact that these cars are shorter, wider, and generally higher than current state-of-the-art cars.
     
  28. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 2,963

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Means that somone is a good salesman or that those cars are built like tanks and its the only way to get down a bumpy shutoff without getting beat up
     
  29. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida


    Good. You build your cars your way, and I'll build mine my way ! :)

    Don
     
    Tudor, whiplash1923T, Baron and 2 others like this.
  30. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 2,963

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Your car, your build, your money, do it however you see fit
     

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