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Ignition facts ??

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by GMC BUBBA, Oct 22, 2012.

  1. Isn't this GMC BUBBA's thread???, this is the biggest high jack I've ever seen here on the HAMB, in more way's than one. Just say'n
     
  2. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,900

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Call it what you will, and don't get me wrong, it is Bubba's thread and it's got lots of good info and I'm sure is greatly appreciated by more HAMBers than just me.
    But when somebody comes in and calls a company like MSD "label stickers" then they have a right to defend theirselves. And how anybody could view that video showing their facility and not be impressed is beyond me.
     
  3. Have to kind of agree with you there - and they are a competitor :D
     
  4. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,900

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Bubba didn't make the "label sticker" comment, this guy did.
    I have the greatest respect for GMC Bubba and appreciate him sharing his vast knowlede with us. Not all engines have the need of more than a well matched stock setup, and Bubba is telling us how to do that matching, he has too much dignity to say shit like that.
     
  5. Yes I did, I won't shy from it. But if I'm reading between the line's correctly, M is moving into B thread, hense "HI Jacking" as defined by the HAMB rules. This is how I see it. I, like most of you enjoy everything Bubba has to say. I've even PM'd him and received lightning fast answers and to the exact point. So, bottom line, I'm defending Bubba here. Go back and you'll see, M is basically accusing B of having like coil as M.
     
  6. GMC BUBBA
    Joined: Jun 15, 2006
    Posts: 3,385

    GMC BUBBA
    Member

    Sure i have a pretty good supply of just about everybodys ignition coils laying around.
    Will start with some current waves from pretty much stock units and then step up to low resistence and higher current unit. I have MSD,Accell, Pertronixs and others to run up and test as well as a MSD red box or two to gather some current ramps from...

    BTW the video was impressive ...:eek::)
     
  7. GMC BUBBA
    Joined: Jun 15, 2006
    Posts: 3,385

    GMC BUBBA
    Member


    Actually its collapased inside a window of " time" and time is limited ( esp at higher rpms).
    So for increased spark duration we need some electronic module control simular to the GM HEI controller using a low resitance ignition coil and controlling the current at a pre-set 5.5 amps of current.
    Others may build a coil that will just use the time factor to stay high until the time runs out ( rpm) then it just decreases the output...
     
  8. outlaw256
    Joined: Jun 26, 2008
    Posts: 2,023

    outlaw256
    Member

    well guys i thought i had a pretty good handle on distributers and coil set ups and which one to use with what. now after reading all this all i can say is "i dont know shit". im so lost now im afraid to go and change points...lol
     
  9. plym_46
    Joined: Sep 8, 2005
    Posts: 4,018

    plym_46
    Member
    from central NY

    Well I will join this conversation a bit late. I always thought the with street engines, the siming of the spark and perhaps its duration was more important than its intensity. After all once the flame front of the combustion mix is lit off, the rest kinda takes care of itself. Assuming everything in the system is as it should be wires plugs grounds, points dist cap etc. Now when you increase compression and or fuel to air mix (richer) or add forced induction, you may need a more intense spark to get the more compressed mix to light, but again once its lit there is little more need for continuing the spark. Seems that the old dual point distributors which were ment to keep the spark to the plug to last longer were counter productive at higher rpm as they actually shortened the saturation phase.

    so in 99% of applications stock ignitions are probably more than enough, except they don't have the eye candy appeal.
     
  10. GMC BUBBA
    Joined: Jun 15, 2006
    Posts: 3,385

    GMC BUBBA
    Member


    Yep sounds good !!!!!!!!
     
  11. Fenders
    Joined: Sep 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,922

    Fenders
    Member

    Welcome to the HAMB... if you start a thread you don't "own" it, and you are expected to be man enough to accept the comments that are thrown your way.
    I know that bubba is.
     
  12. BillM
    Joined: May 26, 2007
    Posts: 247

    BillM
    Member Emeritus

    I think you have that backwards; dual points extend the dwell time which is the period of time that the primary is drawing current or saturating the coil and thus increase the spark at higher RPM's.
     
  13. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,074

    Truckedup
    Member

    GMCBubba,you probably have experience with Joe Hunt magnetos? This is off topic but could relate.....Considering buying a new Joe Hunt mag for a 60's Triumph 650 bike engine used for vintage racing. Are these new Hunt mags reliable? And can you say if they produce a better spark at higher speeds compared to a points ignition ?
     
  14. revkev6
    Joined: Jun 13, 2006
    Posts: 3,351

    revkev6
    Member
    from ma

    bubba, I'm still stuck on condensors! I did some searching around the Hamb and found a thread where you said if you are running an MSD box with points you do not need the condensor?? the points are just a switch at this point so you won't burn them out without it??
     
  15. GMC BUBBA
    Joined: Jun 15, 2006
    Posts: 3,385

    GMC BUBBA
    Member


    I dont have any track record with the newer Joe Hunt stuff.
    I would suggest giving Ed Starr at Magtech in Indy a call, i think you can buy a new mag from Ed as well. His service is great!!!
    317-241-4100

    Theres no doubt at rpm the mag will give you the hottest spark out there !!!
     
  16. GMC BUBBA
    Joined: Jun 15, 2006
    Posts: 3,385

    GMC BUBBA
    Member

    Thats true the current level is so low the condensor isnt needed to prevent the arc.....
     
  17. GMC BUBBA
    Joined: Jun 15, 2006
    Posts: 3,385

    GMC BUBBA
    Member

    Thats true and once upon a time was used as a tune up aid etc. I remember as a kid at the service station if the points were perfect with very little transfer we left the condensor in the vehicle during a tune up as it was read as "being the most correct ".
    In my work with the early Ford V8 groups this would change as they were "positive ground".
    I have discovered over the years its much better to be a little higher on the capacity than being on the low side. We use a .30 mfd on the early Fords to eliminate the contact arc etc..... ( spec is .24mfd)
     
  18. dangulo
    Joined: Feb 11, 2012
    Posts: 56

    dangulo
    Member

    Not sure if this thread is over (bc Im to dumb and overwhelmed with all the info) but I subscribed anyway. Thanks GMC Bubba for the great info.
     
  19. GMC BUBBA
    Joined: Jun 15, 2006
    Posts: 3,385

    GMC BUBBA
    Member


    Its really not that simple , when you add the ressitance into the coil it brings a penality called heat. The heat can and usually is a problem.

    Does your car now have resistor on the dash or a loom resistor ( a special wire or cable xx amount long etc).

    NAPA sells these dash resitors , may be hard to find......
     
  20. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,074

    Truckedup
    Member

    This is my experience with ignitions on a GMC 302.I'm just a hobbyist.This is a street engine,9.25 compression,hotter cam, headers,single 4 barrel etc.At first I used a stock ignition ,brand new spiral wound 300 ohm per foot wires and resistor plugs.When I got the carb jetting sorted out,the engine had a slight misfire when accelerating easy at about 2000 rpm.The accelerator pump was fine,I felt the part throttle carb mixture was good...So I swapped out the wires for solid core Packard 440 and non resistor plugs.The misfire was gone.....Then I got a Multi spark ignition box ,installed it along with the original resistor wires,kept the non resistor plugs.The engine seemed to have a slightly sharper throttle response.Then cam a home made HEI conversion made from a Chevy V6 distributor.This was better than points but maybe not quite as good as the Multi spark.
    All this was for part throttle response. I believe at full throttle the engine ran the same with all the ignition systems.Others may have richened up the part throttle fuel mixture to eliminate the stumble.I choose to mess with ignition....
     
  21. Mike VV
    Joined: Sep 28, 2010
    Posts: 2,354

    Mike VV
    Member
    from SoCal

    Jeff -

    Why the desire to run solid core wires ?
    The only place real wire should be used, is when using a magneto.

    MSD (and Crane and Mallory) built their product, they should know what works and what doesn't. If you think it might be B.S., or your idea is better thAn theirs, give them a call and ask "them" why they recommend spiral wound wire.

    There are plenty of cars going well over 200mph using (various core) "non"- solid wire at the drag races, Bonneville, various types of road racing...!
    You won't loose any power doing it right..!

    Mike
     
  22. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,074

    Truckedup
    Member

    Mike,you have to use a resistor wire to prevent unwanted electrical interference upsetting the ignition box.
     
  23. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,900

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    And the reason there is electrical interference is because the MSD, and other similar units generate so much electrical energy,
    Do you need it? Hell, I dunno, but I'd rather have it and not need it tham need it and not have it.
     
  24. tommy
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 14,757

    tommy
    Member Emeritus

    [​IMG]

    when I bought this the ballast resistor wire was cut in half right in the resistor section. I harvested one out of another factory wiring harness and it was fine. I was restoring it and wanted it to be factory. Until someone unwraps the harness no one will ever know. I may be wrong but I'd bet that any GM ballast resistor for a 64 can be spliced into your wire and work correctly. I think my resistor came from a 6 cyl harness. Mine was on the fire wall inside the taped up harness. I doubt that they sell them separately. I cut it out beyond the resistor section so I did not have to mess with the resistor itself. just a regular wire splice of regular wire on both ends with the factory resistor in between and the factory splice of the resistor wire not disturbed. It worked for me.
     
  25. rustednutz
    Joined: Nov 20, 2010
    Posts: 1,580

    rustednutz
    Member
    from tulsa, ok

    Bubba, thanks for taking the time to share your vast knowledge of ignition systems with us. One thing I've wondered and have not seen anything on it, is there a right or wrong way to mount your coil, ie-location, position(vertical, horizontal, upside down, etc.)?
     
  26. tjet
    Joined: Mar 16, 2009
    Posts: 1,272

    tjet
    Member
    1. Early Hemi Tech

    Stick with jets. Only need to light it once if all goes well :D
     
  27. tjet
    Joined: Mar 16, 2009
    Posts: 1,272

    tjet
    Member
    1. Early Hemi Tech


    This is what I use

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pnx-708103/overview/
     
  28. Royalshifter
    Joined: May 29, 2005
    Posts: 15,525

    Royalshifter
    Moderator
    from California

    Great thread.....my 350 all new will sit and idle real smooth then about every 30 secons give or take it will miss and then run smooth like it wants to stall?...ignition miss? bad plugs? distributer by Bubba.
     
  29. GMC BUBBA
    Joined: Jun 15, 2006
    Posts: 3,385

    GMC BUBBA
    Member


    Clean up the voltmaster with soap and water, spray down and wipe dry with WD40 . Check the ohms and run it !!! Should be 1-1.5 ohms etc, i have on eon my Model T speedster that we have ran with points for approx 7 years runs like a top. They are a very good quality oil filled coil......l
     
  30. So are you saying a twin 8 system with 16 plugs fires every 22 1/2 degrees ?
     

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