The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by finkd, Jun 27, 2012.
Jeff are all the cracks on the hood?
^^^^That is what I meant by too mutch material. ^^^^
The painter always gets blamed when there is issues down the road, been there done that. I haven't painted in years, and wish I used to be 1/2 as good as you are!
oh and I might add, i met ian in new mexico and picked up the car, in bare and bondo It had been rained on and was rusting, not he best thing, but my galaxie had that happen too and it has no paint problems, altho my cad set outside ASS in poly primer for 6 or soo months, and got rained on a bunch, it is haveing some issues, I will have to repaint it and will find out what the prob was so I know how to fix it and what caused it, thats how you learn. So now nobody can say JEFF MYERS is a piece of shit and wont stand behind his work. If you hear that .. you know the offer was made!!!
NO, I havent seen the car in person, as Ian told me of the probs this year when I was at pomona, on sunday as show was shutting down I ran into them, we were leaving that eve and car wasnt at the show , so i havent seen it, and he cant show it anymore because it is ruined. I have had about 10 people tell me of this story and all the shit talking and it has esculated the last couple days, mainly over texts between Ian and I and anouther person. but I get more and more calls everyday, telling me of stories trying to discredit my reputation, and I'm stopping it here. One such story was a few months after I got the car back to Ian he was saying how poor the paint job actually was and he was going to redo it, himself....I've been waiting to see it repainted, but it has never happened. and now the stories just get worse , hince the guy from mass. talking in this very post and identifieing the car as Ians, and he even seems to have heard the story...just calling it out and ending it NOW> I am an honest guy and have done enough cars to know whats up. I love RYNOS comment, tells it like it is !!! and there are alot of guy like that out there. and that all I got to say about that.........................................THE END> good night.
Ya, that would be me, and I only learned of it from what you posted the other night on a separate thread...and like I said in my prior post you both deserve to find a resolve to the matter...
I've never met the builder, but I remember the build photos.............
Wasn't this the builders first, or one of his first chops?
The large amount of surface area covered with plastic filler, and the thickness thereof, would make this a '' NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED '' job in my shop! Given the cost of labor and paint materials today, it's easy to get five figures into paint for a custom.
Again, I see nothing that say's the painter is to blame for this mega failure
The only thing I can see you being blamed for on this is agreeing to paint over someone elses body work. I guess that is a lesson learned.
I work for a filler company and I see this exact same kind of failure once in a while and in virtually every case it is on a dark coloured car and the filler was applied during warm weather. If the cracks were just on the hood I would maybe lean towards the flex of the hood causing the problems but if they are in other areas I would be far more inclined to think that it is a catalyzation issue. Usually under catalyzed. Everyone thinks it is no big deal to add less hardener to filler when it is hot out to increase the working time but it can have terrible results. If filler is not properly catalyzed it is not stable, will move when heated and cooled and is very prone to cracking. All of these outcomes are exagerated on dark coloured cars as the will obviously absorb more heat which results in more movement and more chance of failure. It has nothing to do with what has been put over top of the filler but the application of the filler itself.
i don't have any relation with Jeff or Ian for that matter, other then meeting them at shows threw the years. i didn't know this issue was on Ian's car when i first read and commented on it. with that said, i find it even more disturbing now, and frankly pretty sad.
from what i remember, Ian and Jeff seemed to be intsa bros, when the work was being done, when Ian went to ks to chop a car and work with Jeff, when Jeff's friend i believe it was, gave Ian his 61 Cadillac, etc etc. just seems said that there's been so much drama around this issue and shit spread all over the net about jeff's work.
he seems to be doing , at least its my understanding way more then most would do. hes agreed to fix it if its his fault. sucks that hes 1800 miles from socal, but in some regards you brought to him for one reason or another before, so do it again and give the man a chance to fix it. im assuming that the price that was paid reflects the friend ship that was once a strong bond.
Rank rookie asking a question-The car as delivered had bare metal as well as filler. Do all of the failures fall in the area with filler, or are there some where there was bare metal? Just asking.....
I'm no great pro, but I have a shop.
I'm leaning towards under-catalyzed filler, or "seams" between applications of filler at the same depth without waiting for the first area to cure and get roughly sanded before applying the additional filler needed to cover the overal area needed.
Sure would like to see what is under those cracks though.
Wow, that's a lots of filler. There's some areas that look like they're destined to fail before it ever got started. Mud don't move like metal does, and there's like 4-5 sheet metal thickness' there. When you showed the door edge repair I'd have never guessed all that was under there. Friend or not, I mighta said no thanks or get a signature that states No Warranty on repaired panels.
This is why I fuckin hate bondo, the way it's trotted out there as a miracle, as the only and correct way to do shit. Just finished a car last year that never even got past primer and it cracked. No, I didn't frost that birthday cake, but I sure took a lot off before it went to finish. This is a good time for all the "drywall guys" to come out and tell us they got cars out there thicker than this and they're still perfect 58yrs later...
I'll put this out there too. That 40 Merc that was recently done on TV in candy red will end up like this too if it hasn't already. That fucker was done like a pavement project. It doesn't work kids. Look and see for yourself. I see flash rust UNDER some of that fill too. Was it washed with metalprep before fill? Y'all can say I'm full of shit on this one too, but I see "highs" all over it. Musta looked like a fuckin bakery workin on that car, flour everywhere. Good luck you guys. I hope it gets resolved, and it takes a bad mother fucker to step out in front of this and tell it like it is, let alone what he's willing to do about it. You're in a minority finkd, and though there's 3 sides to every story I don't see any bullshit here.
If you smell something stinking.... Its Jeff because he is the shit.. He spot painted some shit for me and it came out BITCHIN... Even with "old man" Mcphail at the same time experimenting with plastics, making tail lights and filling the shop with silicone. Jeff is strong, funny, good looking, and a hell of a good dancer. and painter. and customizer. If I was a chick, I would totally fuck him.
This one hurt me, Should be on of the list of best reply ever. LOL!
Man this sucks on both ends hope you two can get it worked out.I paint for a living and know it's a matter of personal pride when a failure happens,and they do happen guys.Only way to fix the problem is to find the cause.I will say one thing though,man thats a shit load of mud on that car,Yikes!
I am going to chime in and give my 2 shits on what I see. All the pics show are hard line cracks. I do not see any dulling out, hazing, peeling, flaking, etc of paint related problems in any of the pics. I do not buy the under-catalyzed bondo. Speaking from experience I see everyday in the body shop world, when you pile excessive amounts of bondo under a dark color, it’s going to crack. Plain and simple. On top of that vibration is a killer to thick bondo as well. I see a feather line lifting in one for the pictures, leads me to believe that corrosion and weather got into the bondo from sitting outside. No the clear is not too thick. Jeff cut and buffed after his 4 coats, which would have taken any excess off that you might be worried about. How do you think patterns, flake, artwork, pin striping cannot be felt while under the clear? Also don’t forget he used good quality materials. That alone helps tremendously. Its not like he went out and bought some swamp meet paint in a miss-labeled can.
Hard to say really what caused it, Shit happens sometimes. My first reaction when i saw the pic was the improper use of 2 part finishing glaze, A lot of guys use it to do body work as a filler because it's so nice to sand and leaves a great finishing surface. During the blocking stage a small area may have needed attention and a thin layer of 2 part was skimmed over on to fix a spot on fine sanded surface. Resulting in poor adhesion because the surface was too smooth and didn't stick.Spot the area with a too wet coat of primer and it only adds to the problem. Give it a little age and a hot sun and 'bingo'
I dug into those kind of splits to find the top layer, usually glaze, has split. Rarely will bondo split like that unless it's been hit.
My 2 cents from 39 yrs on the bench.
Im not a body or paint guy but I have been around a while. That is a shit pot load of bondo on that car. If the owner thinks that it wasn't going to be a problem I think he was just fooling himself.
WE Had a rocky start, man you were all over me on this one, but i had an idea of how I wanted it to go and hung with my choice to get the right outcome on this, I've heard from coast to coast and even clear out by are 51 that I'd been mf'ered for my paint on that car. thanks for hangin with me , you sir were a handfull. LOL
OK, I'm going to go against the grain a bit here, but not seeing it in person, I can't be sure. The hood looks like it had been welded into 1 piece, and peaked. The crack lines parallel the peak? Other spots look like they are places that have seen bondo as well....but I suspect that the cause may be the metal itself. I've redone cars that have had bondo an inch or more thick, and you wouldn't know it, even after 15-20 years! I couldn't believe it, when I dug it all out!
BUT, if the metal, or weld, more precisely, fails, no matter what is on top of it, it fails. Even my own 54 Chevy, I had a crack parallel to the ground, where I had put in a patch. Welded solid, ground smootth, perhaps TOO smooth, I thinned the metal out too much and it was flexing, and eventually cracked. Cracking the thin layer of filler abouve it, and the pearl paint, too.
Not knowing the work underneath, I suspect either over ground welds, thinned metal, or incomplete welds (tacks or stitches). I've even seen this happen when guys overlap of flange weld, it makes a stiff area that doesn't flex, while the metal all around it DOES. Unless the wielder of the bondo paddle was completely clueless, and cleaned, mixed, or applied it incorrectly, which I find hard to believe these days.
I feel your pain Jeff, and believe me, anyone here, or anywhere, who is a good bodyman an/or painter, KNOWS that this failure probably wasn't on your part. Either substrate, or material failure is (most likely) the problem.
BINGO!! Check the different color shades of filler layers in the pic with bare metal and filler. That shows the different batches of filler and how they were catalyzed differently. Filler/resin, will get brittle at one point with too much catalyst and/or heat, and also it can become more flexible with too much catalyst. There can also be excess catalyst left after curing which can cause problems. These variables are relative to the ambient temperature--too hot--too cold. Under catalyzing will cause a similar effect, again relative to the ambient temperature. The hood is more vulnerable to cracking because of the constant temp change from engine heat underneath and the sun on top.
Handful or not (can't say I get it), there's really a specific number of problems that could cause this. It's not infinite, not rocket science, and went against everything posted as supporting info. Well, not now...
Now that I know who's car it is, I know exactly what happened. It stayed in bare metal way to long and was even driven that way wasn't it? I know its the in thing to drive ratty looking shit, but if you intend to have your car finished someday, it should never have left the garage until it had at least a coat of primer. Highlander that last post was epic. Haha a fuckin bakery.....you should see me when I have to do stock car bodies. They're nothing but tack welded sheetmetal and 2 inches of mud.
I'm not a pro any more but I shot a lot of paint back in the day when they used Duco lacquer from the factory & Dulux was a new product. Plastic filler was just starting to replace lead as the filler of choice. Paint checking from too much paint is a lot finer crack (more of a crazing) than any of that shown. My money is on too much plastic and/or poor prep.
I'm going with too mucho-muddo.That and the rained-on metal and mud.Fink,I feel for you Dude. I've been there with the finger pointing, and talk behind your back.B.S.You put your heart and soul into your passion,only to get this kind of stuff.You have been Stand-up on your warranty offer,and now it's Ians turn to put up or... I finally had enough of the painting headaches,and got into other facets of car building(even though painting was my first love.)If I get out to Kansas this Summer , let's raise a Beer
Your reputation is not ruined and I painted all the time and shit happens. Bondo, rained on, spilled coffee or whatever. All I know is that dark red /purple/burgandy.colors like that are the most heat absorbing colors and out in hot zones IE: Arizona,New Mexico etc. are murder on those finishes.
The Reatta I just redid was painted under warranty twice and looked like an aligator in 2 years. Don't have any fucken idea how long it will last this time.In Wisconsin it might make it longer. Fuck all the know it alls!!!!
just piss poor prep & workmanship before the painter got it. End of story .
Give the painter a break.
Another reason not to take on someones half baked bondo job.
Looking at the pics in post #57 it looks like there is a lot of filler on that car,
but it really looks to me that something under the paint, either filler, or glaze has shrank from to little or no catalyst.
yet over here the panelbeaters do the bondo work and get the panels straight (a hangover of the old lead-filling days)...then the painters take over .painters have been working over others peoples work for generations.
I agree the metalwork was poss not the best on this Chev,it probably sat round in bare bondo(which looks to me like it was applied over bare metal) for waaay too long,got rained on too..yada yada... and was a disaster waiting to happen.
I am absolutely convinced that the ONLY thing that seals the surface of any panel job is actual paint....not primer....any primer.Ask me how I know!!
There is no perfect filler for automotive work. There can be material failure, poor workmanship,harsh climatic conditions..all sorts. FFS I've even seen a recent -at the time -Riddler winner with lead blisters in places.
Good on you Jeff for agreeing to play ball on this one for someone who I for one hope is still your friend.Best wishes for getting it sorted and shaking hands at the end of it.
Seems to be 50 shades of filler on that car. Some mixed with too much hardener some not enough. Also it was put on in a million little spots not spread mixed or spread over tha panel consistently. Also I imagine (based on pic) the bondo was put over metal that was not ground right. Looks like it was sanded only 80'grit? No tooth for it to mechanically bite to the metal. To me the mills seem thin on the base n clear. So I'm no expert but that's gotta be under the base n clear. The cracks are so deep looking its gotta be a filler n metal issue.
Btw Jeff Ilove ya man but that guy Masterson is a ball buster see you in salina.
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