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History I think I found Larry Neves #2 track roadster

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Youngster51, May 5, 2020.

  1. 98Racer
    Joined: May 17, 2005
    Posts: 26

    98Racer
    Member

    How about listing the sponsors from the sign. Might be able to track down former employees or some additional info. I remember there was a Gary Pacheco who raced in the Bay Area in the late 60's. Not sure if he was any relation to George. He was sponsored by Alta Vista Salvage on Mission Blvd. in Hayward.
     
  2. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,400

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    You might contact these guys. East Bay Rods is a class outfit. Art and Mickey Himsl have been members at least since the early '60s and have had several cars in the GNRS back when it was the Oakland Roadster Show, and have won, and in lots of the other West Coast shows. Art is a famous painter and probably knows most of the Bay Area painters from the day. Mickey is a builder second to none with over 60 years of hot rod connections in the area. Recently Mickey found pieces of his high school A pickup and has resurrected it. This might interest them and they could have some information. They are both good guys. They were our high school hot rod heroes. Art still lives in Concord, CA, not sure about Mickey.
    https://www.facebook.com/eastbayrods
     
  3. missysdad1
    Joined: Dec 9, 2008
    Posts: 2,942

    missysdad1
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Hot rod archaeology has always fascinated me. Trying to figure out not only what was done to a car over the years and various incarnations, but also why. Many hot rods of mine have gone through several owners, all of whom made changes, some good and some not so good. One of mine actually went from nicely finished high boy to very shabby fendered car in the years before I owned it. I didn't discover this until I pulled the fenders off and discovered glossy paint and pin striping on the frame beneath them. Must have been a really nice car in it's day.

    That this car was even considered as having a former life as a dirt track roadster is amazing considering what the latest version looks like. That it might have been a particular, famous car is even more amazing. The new owner has pointed out several similarities to the original version that cannot be explained in any other way in my humble opinion. The more the similarities are revealed the more excited I get about following this project. I've liked this car ever since I first saw it in a magazine many years ago. It was stubby with a short wheelbase when compared to most other roadsters and that is what makes it so unique and memorable to my eye. I feel confident that the evidence has concluded that this is the same Larry Neves #2 car I remember. Rock on!
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  4. Youngster51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2014
    Posts: 252

    Youngster51
    Member
    from Fresno ca.


    I spoke with Art’s assistant the younger girl awhile back. She said they did not find any show photos of my roadster and that he did not remember it.

    what you said about the hot rod clubs and Bay Area guys made me realize something.

    Valdez had other cars and my T did not fit in. If he was a member of a club it had to be a low rider club. He had a 54 Chevy with ribbon paint on spoke wheels. A convertible 56 Chevy on hydraulics and an impala on hydraulics that was full show car.

    this makes me think that the T had to have sentimental value for the wife and was built for the wife like the second painter told me. It was not the type of car I think he would of bought on his own and now I understand why he would of changed it so radically from the 1950 version as hot rods were not his thing.
     
  5. 34 5W Paul
    Joined: Mar 27, 2020
    Posts: 14

    34 5W Paul
    Member
    from Fresno CA

    Great detective work Youngster. I just read this thread front to back and it's fascinating. Not many Fresnonians have contended for an AMBR so if I ask around I bet I could figure out who you are. I've been to George's garage/showroom and heard the A La Kart story from the man himself. Best of luck, can't wait to see the results.
     
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  6. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,400

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Youngster51, I just sent Paul a PM because I saw he is from Fresno I hadn't seen that you are too. My question for him was if he knew Ralph Bragdserian (?). Ralph surely rubbed elbows with the top rodders of the day and may know something of value here. I haven't seen or heard of Ralph for tears and he is older than me. I hope is is still building. The last time I was there he was building a '40 Ford pickup mostly from NOS parts. He had me hammer on some really hard Cardinal paint he was using on the running gear. He drove the crap out of my 270 GMC powered '53 Chevy pickup and had lots of good things to say. It made me feel really good/proud.
     
  7. Youngster51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2014
    Posts: 252

    Youngster51
    Member
    from Fresno ca.


    Yes I know Ralph. Last time I saw him was probably 5 years ago he was still doing great and out looking for parts. If I remember right he was building a 34 coupe at the time. I should have his number some where I’ll look for it.
     
  8. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,400

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    We stayed with he and his wife a couple of time on trips to Paso. He had some cool stuff. Brian Bass and my son striped his shop door on one trip and he gave Brian a Tommy the Greek striping brush they used. Glad he's OK.

    Sorry Art couldn't tell you anything. I think your theory about Valdez is probably right. My brother too hundreds if not thousands of pictures of Northern California car shows and races from '58 through the '70s. They are almost all slides. I wish I could get a look at them but his widow is afraid to let them loose.
     
  9. Youngster51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2014
    Posts: 252

    Youngster51
    Member
    from Fresno ca.

    I was able to track down the son of Al Fettke the original painter who painted the blue fade job. It was the first paint job from being changed over from race car. Unfortunately after talking the body was dropped off to his dad in bare metal no numbers on it. This was the email he responded to me with.

    3E141568-7F82-4656-866B-D38485D2506E.png
     
  10. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 14,462

    Squablow
    Member

    Evidence that the body was a race car at one time and needed to be heavily reworked. Hardly a smoking gun but it certainly would point in the right direction.
     
  11. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,400

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

  12. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,756

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Dayuum that's a great Thread @Six Ball...Hamber CW is one who seemed to be right in the thick of much of Hotrods Greatness. I hope he still in good health. He hasn't been on in quite some time.
     
  13. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,400

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    A few years ago the Canapea Twins (sisters) inherited their dad's incredible stash of central California racing history & parts, drag, dry lakes, and track. Don Canapea was well known and a very skilled machinist and builder. The twins had threads on here, Inliners, and Pirate 4X4 sites. They were trying to get their Dad's stuff out of Salinas (I think) with the city riding them and thieves showing up when the left. They did a LOT of research trying to identify old race cars and parts, At least 3 Ts. They connected with many old racers and their families. It might be worth contacting Bebe to see if anything they found could help here. Hats off to Don Canapea this guy raised some mechanical minded ladies that are still at it big time.

    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/help-identifying-this-vintage-lakester.675785/
     
  14. KKrod
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 1,117

    KKrod
    Member

  15. Youngster51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2014
    Posts: 252

    Youngster51
    Member
    from Fresno ca.



    that’s great info thank you. The number 92 car that George Pacheco raced won the 1947 NCRRA championship and that trophy is sitting in front of the number 2 roadster at the 1950 Oakland roadster show. I think Larry rebuilt the number 92 car into the 2 car and Had Jack Hagemann build the chassis in 1948-49 Prior to the woody lee car. I looked at more photos of the woody lee chassis and mine is identical in craftsmanship.
     
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  16. Youngster51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2014
    Posts: 252

    Youngster51
    Member
    from Fresno ca.

    Does anybody know how old George was when he raced? I found a 1913 date of birth for a George Pacheco in the area At that time but that would make him 37 in 1950. Mid 30’s when he was racing roadsters.
     
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  17. Youngster51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2014
    Posts: 252

    Youngster51
    Member
    from Fresno ca.

  18. Pat
    Joined: Jan 6, 2002
    Posts: 166

    Pat
    Member

    He certainly looks like he could be mid 30’s in these pictures I posted earlier. 9BB47113-115A-471D-AEF1-CAF21209713E.jpeg B58DA259-E8E9-4A3B-A2F9-39012AED2EAE.jpeg
     
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  19. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,400

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    My dad was born in 1913. In his mid 30s he was running a garage and machine shop, farming over 200 acres and raising livestock. That generation was tough beyond belief. They were literally the sons and grandsons of pioneers. They were at that age just getting their lives back from the depression and WWII. Risking you life a few times a week racing roadsters would have been fun for them.
     
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  20. Youngster51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2014
    Posts: 252

    Youngster51
    Member
    from Fresno ca.

    Alright i thought so to but I read an article from 48 saying a driver was 44 years old like he was ancient and that he was beating all the young guys.

    I will research more on George Pacheco.
     
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  21. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,756

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Such a cool shot...

    :rolleyes:...@Youngster51 did you bare the drivers side of your Roadster as this might be a great pic to overlay for another bout of connect the dots...;)
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  22. Youngster51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2014
    Posts: 252

    Youngster51
    Member
    from Fresno ca.


    I did sand it down all the way around. Sent you a PM thanks
     
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  23. KKrod
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 1,117

    KKrod
    Member

    Youngster31 Do the holes for the upholstery snaps on your cowl match the details in the photo? That is about as high resolution photo as you will get when it is expanded. If they do you almost certainly have a match with the body. Could you take a photo at the same angle and with the holes outlined in something like a black sharpie so that we can see them? Thanks.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  24. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,756

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This is the best I can do with the angles of the provided imagery. I highlighted where I see discrepancy. I believe this is largely in part due to the angle of the new pic to old is to far off. While they are close look at the turtle deck to see how much difference there is. The Firewall is another question mark...is it trimmed back or is it pic angle and program capability.

    The less distorting of the image I have to do the more accurate the quantification that we have The Neves Racer. In other words best case scenario is I scale the new image down and it fits over the old without making it fit through additional program tool fitting...ie the turtle deck should look the same to the old image then you are more accurate in angle...

    It would help if you could make the snap holes more visible by outlining the hole with black marker or perhaps those stick on dots the size of the button snap you get from the stationary store centered on the hole.

    Junior2.jpg

    By the way @Youngster51, I was looking at the Thread on the Roaring Roadsters @sixball provided and I thought I saw a roadster sporting A very similar Grille and hood that may have found its way into the Neves Roadster in the constant swapping that must have been like a revolving door at the time. As you and others have alluded, the car was rebodied due to accidents at the track and wow that was really common...and many times catastrophic unfortunately...


     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  25. Pat
    Joined: Jan 6, 2002
    Posts: 166

    Pat
    Member

    This detective work is great Stogy! I wonder if this is indeed the same body. If there are 2 sets of holes maybe these can be matched up also 4CFB34B5-9BAE-45CC-9299-509598BFA283.jpeg
     
  26. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,756

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Vintage Hotrod/Custom/Race is indeed interesting to research...

    Pat that really looks very similar and that would be the same set of snaps I lined up and yes there was a set of holes midway to the top edge and its no doubt from a former build on perhaps another racer...great find...that Revs site has an incredible amount of vintage shots but finding them can be tricky...

    One thing to consider in the Big Picture is the Upholstery including the Snap Covers may have been done by a local shop with templates much like builders like @Marty Strode Use for repetitious installs...that said that interior and cover do look done by the same upholsterer.

    You can download a much larger version of that as they have multiple resolutions...these low resolutions are difficult to work with...But we try including me...;)
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  27. Youngster51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2014
    Posts: 252

    Youngster51
    Member
    from Fresno ca.


    The second set definitely looks like they would match up also. There’s 2 holes in the door reveal area and one right on the door reveal body line just like my roadster.

    that would prove that the 92 roadster became the 2 roadster if they both match up on my body. Awesome
     
  28. .. man .. too bad that Jack Hagemann nose isn't laying around, somewhere close. Wonder where it is today ? Can't be but so many out there .. likely each one unique in provenance.

    He was Roadster Show Hall of Famed in 1961. Already revered. Someone knows where THAT SPECIFIC nose is. Guaranteed. Wonder if his son is up on that information ?

    Same name .. Jack Hagemann, add Jr.
     
  29. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 16,756

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    2_Flames.jpg

    :rolleyes:...Here Ya Go @Youngster51 ...My thoughts...Pretty Cool, Pretty close and to me just the fact it was a Hotrod/Roaring Racer is a bonus regardless of out come. I think due to Provenance You should seek certified professional verification/evaluation because for Bowling Green Type Authenticity there must be certified verification and to me this cars worthy of it...that of course is Hotrodder, Graphichead Stogy's Opinion...:D

    I think that could be a Qualified Historical Photographer that can match angle Spot On to verify in Overlay without Digital distortion other than minimal scaling to what we are seeing regarding Snap locations in the 1950 shots so these details can be recorded for Provenance as again that may very well be true that its Neves 2nd Place winner.

    To me if you build it as a 1950 Spot On Show Status or Show and Go, I'm good, it's better than Stang Tailed...:D

    I would even Try to find a better resolution images of these 1950 Show Shots as these really aren't that great for this type of work. Good for looking yes...Not faulting anyone for that we do what we can...this has been a great Thread evolving here.

    One thing I did see tonight at the link below, in Hamber @royalshifters Inspirational Tribute to a Classic Custom Build...he took a Shot that highlighted where one has to get angle wise and its still out a wee bit but not much. The other thing it may be is camera focus fish eye, wide angle it all matters...I just use my Phone and its a good pic but I think a modern image to 1950, perhaps flatter and you may be able to get that but its more work at the matching end if its out.

    When you get it free and clear you should get it out and have that vintage pic flat not curled and the car set just right. Things like the Turtle deck should in fact even align then you know your right for verifying confidently.

    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...roadster-tribute.1188629/page-4#post-13535561

    Credit to Photographer, Owner
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  30. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,400

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Once the snaps are aligned as well as they can be then the other mounts and brackets or evidence of them will give more assurance that this in the one. I'm ready to call it now with this and the family connections.
     

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