Hot Rods I Just Bought a 51 Studebaker Commander

Hi, everyone. I'm a new member, and I've just purchased a 51 Studebaker Commander. It is a stock 232 V8 with a two barrel carb. I'd like to know if anyone has put (2) 2 barrels on this motor, a different distributor, dual exhaust, done a cam grind, and or done any cylinder head work. If so, would you share your discoveries with me? Thanks a lot.

 

Welcome, those are cool cars. I would suggest you fill out your profile as your location really helps on help and parts. Gary

 

Go register on the Studebaker Drivers Club forum. You'll find lots of good information there.

And if you can't find the threads you need, start a thread asking for thread links on Stude V-8 performance (especially 232s).

 

Dean Moon pioneered the Stude-to-Ford swap in the late '50s, planting one in the Moon Yellow '34 roadster.
Dean collaborated with an L.A. casting firm to cast some Stude speed parts! 2 X 2 intake manifold, timing cover, and rocker covers, under the moniker "STU-V".
Look it up...some of that stuff kicked around for years...

 

You will find lots of information on the Studebaker Drivers Club forum. You can do some of those things to
the 232 but I have read that the valves are tiny and even the later heads are limited as to what can be done to improve flow.

 

^^^ This is the reason that there were so many 'Studillacs' running around. The Cadillac engine looked like a Stude, same upper thermostat housing, oil filler tube, etc. Practically a 'bolt-in'. The kit was very minimal, torque was amazing.

 

Good purchase. I've good a soft spot for 51 Studes. I learned to drive in this one:

 

You have one of the toughest engines ever built.
If you have any cam or lifter probs due to it being an early engine, dont worry. Any later cam and lifters will drop right in and cure any early cam/lifter compatibility prob they had at the very beginning.
The tiny valves and ports on the 232s can be helped by using just about any 1955 and later stude heads. A little bit of notching the block above the ring travel will be required to give the intake valve a bit of room, but you can find articles on that by googling around.
Beware of people selling all sorts of very high priced cool "performance" junk that doesn't do much to help.
You can easily put in any cam that fits a Stude v8, including the hotter Avanti cams, but just keep in mind that any cam grind that a bigger engine likes, will feel like a wilder one in a tiny engine. I think an R series Avanti cam would make that engine sound cool and liven up the engine. The wilder aftermarket grinds for performance 289/304 s might be a bit much for the tiny engine if you're not planning to get crazy with it, so be aware of it if you decide to experiment with a wilder combo. A cam that is wild in a big engine will act wilder in a small one, so try not to go too far all at once.

WEIGHT IS THE ENEMY when you use a small engine.
Some of our fastest cars used modified Studie engines, but if you have to carry much weight, they slow down in a hurry.
I use a big Caddy engine in my trailer pulling Hawk because I have to, but in a car that doesnt have to carry huge weights, I have much more fun with the worked-over Studies. ..only if I don't have to drag around a whole lot of cargo.
The lack of cubic inches means you have to take every advantage you can with careful gear choices, keeping it light, and having fun with experiments.
Avoid the temptation to spend huge bucks on fancy stuff from high priced vendors that only help a little. Your own experiments will give you better results far cheaper.

Oh yeah, any of the later kingpins, a-arms etc, will be fine to fix any worn front end probs. if you have trouble finding 1951 fixit parts.
Some time in the past, certain front end rebuild parts became quite scarce. I dont know if that is still a problem today, but if you do find something has become scarce, you can use parts from the later cars all the way up to the mid 80s Blake Avantis.
Just make sure that left and right side kingpins come from the same years. Then use the front alignment numbers for the year of the kingpin donor car.
They changed certain front alignment specs in the books, but don't let that scare you - they were only experimenting with different kingpin "twists" and offsets along the way, but they all fit.
I have a whole album of Photopoint photos showing how to identify each piece by the lathe-center locations, machining marks, amount of stamping-twist, etc. but it'll take me a long time to dig out long-buried boxes. Just remember that Stude used the same parts in several different combinations to make "new" cars out of the same ten-fifteen year old parts buckets.
The different part numbers for later kingpins shouldnt scare you off as long as you use left and right mirror imaged parts from the same years. You can even lower the nose a couple inches without cutting coils, just pick out a later spindle that fits your suspension perfectly.
Studebaker Company was great about being stingy and making a lot of different parts that were very "swappable"

Three points to always keep in mind....
The BIGGEST results will come from improving the heads valve-breathing, Powerful ignition (DO NOT let anyone talk you into trading your great Delco distributor [1951 to 61] for a Prestolite[62 63]) ,
and you need a good gear spread. oh, yeah WEIGHT IS THE ENEMY.

You didnt say what trans or rear gears it has. If it has an automatic, they had a good reputation, but they are horsepower hogs, and you can't spare much hp to waste.
If it has a stick, or better yet with overdrive, you are in luck.
You may even have a 4.55 gear that would be a perfect match for one of those super-common 5 speeds (90s camaro/mustang??) that had an overdrive 5th gear. That would be the perfect match to a warmed up Stude 232 to play with.

WHY BE ORDINARY ?

 

Thanks. Will do.

 

Oh, wow! Thanks a million for the information. I'm real excited!!!

 

I will find out the rear gear information; and thanks for the input on it. I have the 3 speed automatic. Dare-to-be-different, do you have a suggestion for a carb setup? A gentleman here mentioned using a larger 2 barrel carb from a 259 or a 289. I'd like to achieve 150 hp, if possible. I'd be happy with that. I love the idea of two 2 barrels. I always like the thrill of flooring dual carbs. What do you think about dual exhaust? Thanks so much!

 

Sorry, I forgot to ask about re-curving the distributor and grinding the weights. Is that a good idea? If I separate the starter from the ignition? Thanks again, and I appreciate your educating me on all of these things. I've looked around for weeks and found very little reliable info. I just want a simple and effective upgrade so that I can enjoy my new dream car -- which needs lots of work! I have the bullet and grill BTW.

 

That's so cool.

 

Don't forget the forums at Racing Studebakers....

http://racingstudebakers.com/racing_forums.htm

 

Those engines do have their fans, and were hopped up in the early fifties. A company called Stu V made a manifold for 2 2s. They made a lot of other hop up parts too.

I have a couple of suggestions that go for most old engines. #1 DO NOT hop it up unless you tear it down and go through it inspecting and replacing bearings, rings, etc as necessary. There are plenty of old engines that will go on running fine for years if you leave them alone, but blow sky high in a month if you hop them up.

#2 do not expect too much. A mild hop up of carbs, ignition, dual exhaust, cam and possibly a lightened flywheel will get you 25% more power and performance without too much trouble and expense. If you want much more than that the expense and problems increase exponentially to where it makes more sense to swap engines, or maybe buy a newer car.

They were a pretty decent performer in their day and you may find performance adequate even in stock form. Road tester Tom McCahill said the new 1951 V8 turned the maidenly Studebaker into a rip roaring, hell for leather performer. This says more about the low standards of performance of 1951 than anything, still they were a good car then and you can have a lot of fun with one today.

In 1951 Gober Sosebee set a record of 117 MPH in the Daytona Beach speed trials with a hopped up Commander 4 door sedan with twin carbs and a few other mods.

Suggest you get it on the road in stock condition and drive it around for a while, cleaning up any faults that turn up. Get used to the car then make up your mind if you want to hop it up.

 

Thanks a lot. Are the 2x2 intakes very expensive? I've seen some for 1100 bucks but they are for Cadillacs and supposedly Studebakers.

 

Some good advice given so far. If the 232 is in running condition, give it a good tune up and drive it. If you wanted to upgrade the ignition, a Pertronix is available in either 6v or 12v for your Delco distributor. As stated above that is a very good distributor.
A dual exhaust is the first thing to be done, in my estimation. The drivers side head pipe can be a pain on Studes due to the drag link and the bell crank.
Any Stude manifold will bolt to your motor but the port size may not match. Various manifolds pop up for sale in the classifieds on this board and on craigslist. Different makes command different prices. The most common are Weiand. I scored one on CL for $250 a while back. It had been smoothed and polished sometime in the past and needs to be polished out again. I recently saw one on CL that had been painted and had a couple of broken studs for around $200. I should have bought it. Next would be Edmunds. Expect to pay $400+ for a one. The Stu-V manifold is pretty much unobtainum.
Most of these manifolds have the four bolt pattern of the Stromberg WW carb. You would need an adapter if you wanted to run three bolt 97's or the like.
Offenhauser made a four barrel manifold for the early Stude. They are patterned for an early Rochester I think. You need an adapter plate to run a WCFB or AFB. I scored one of these a while back right here on the HAMB classified. I think I paid $300. It had also been polished sometime in its past life. Who ever did it sanded the Offy logo right off the casting when they polished it. It had also been bead blasted since then. This manifold has small ports.
Finally, the factory four barrel manifold is about as good as it gets. The later two barrel manifolds are the same casting as the four barrel and can be machined to accept a WCFB or AFB carb.
The expense in all of this is the carb set-up. New 97 carbs are expensive. Scoring a good pair of WW's and having them professionally rebuilt is expensive.

Having said all that, I wouldn't bother with any performance mods on a 232, beyond a good ignition and a dual exhaust. If you really want 150hp, you should look for a good 259 or better yet a 289 as the foundation for a performance motor. You would be much happier in the long run.

 

Good advice given above.
Before doing anything I would suggest a lot of research at both Racing Studebakers and the SDC Forum.
Make up a sheet listing all mods and determine what will work for you.
Have a game plan. Don't buy anything until your sure it's what you need.
My avatar is a pile of old Stude V8's BTW. A 259/289 builder engine isn't hard to come by.

 

Welcome to the club of helpers and liars.LOL.Bruce.

 

https://buffalo.craigslist.org/cto/d/legendary-survivor-the-maggot/6488830070.html


This car is pretty neat, seen it run... Note the shovel handle shifter

 

I FORGOT TO MENTION-
Along with small exhaust ports, the EXHAUST MANIFOLDS on a 232, 1951 to 1954 have tiny passages.
When you install the larger 1955-1964 cyl heads, make sure you use 1955 and later ex manifold too.
Yes, with dual exhaust.
I like the sound of Flowmasters on mine. I recommend 2 1/4 pipes if your muffler shop will do it.
dont let a shop use 1 7/8 out of laziness.
2" at the very minimum if they wont do 2 1/4 for you
as few bends as possible.
As far as I have experienced, the intake manifolds all interchange. Intake port openings all match up pretty well. a little gasket-matching helps of course.
Its the EXHAUST ports that are tiny on the 232s.
Caddy intake manifolds may look cool, but you have to zig zag the end ports to make it work.

If you have the hood room, and you should have room, you can try a tall pickup truck 2bbl intake manifold for a straighter shot to the ports.
but its a 2bbl manifold



WHY BE ORDINARY ?

 

Thanks to all who've replied. I really appreciate it! Dare-to-be-different, do recommend re-curving the distributor?

 

I like a lot more advance that comes in quicker than factory, but I don't have any numbers that are meaningful.
I remember in 1974 I read something that a guy wrote who was running on an nhra record with an R2 -
he said that he ran a lot more spark advance than factory specs. Running factory timing numbers cost him 100 hp, he estimated.
From then on, I have thrown away shop manual numbers and have simply played with it to get more advance as long as the engine was happier.
I am afraid to describe what I do, and have a reader interpret it differently from what I meant.
We almost always ended up with 37 deg total (I remember a 38, but I dono if we used it very much)(not using any vac advance) in our drag car playthings as producing the fastest track times, but that info doesnt help you much for the other conditions.
Ignore the super conservative numbers in the shop manuals, and just dial in what the engine responds to. which means more ...
On my 30 yr+ daily driver, I buy a Moroso spring and weight recurving set for Delco distribs, then grind a "middle plate" shape that advances fairly quickly, and somewhat soft springs to start earlier. Sometimes I use the two softest springs, and sometimes I use the softest on one weight, and the next-from-softest on the other weight, depending on how the engine likes it. Sometimes I'll set aside the softest, and go with the next ones up.
BUT that's when I'm using my own reground shapes on the middle plate.
And, man, I'm afraid to tell you that in case that's not at all what your engine likes.
I also set the distributor with more initial than the book says, but then I stop paying attention to that number as the tuning progresses. I often move that around a bit as the curve gets modified and tuned...
I go by how the engine reacts at full throttle at various speeds. I dono how to describe it.
Sorry.
I dono how others do it, but I like to shave my heads a bit and run as much advance as it likes.
Some others may argue that this sounds odd but I like to tune it on premium fuel so I dont get spark knock artificially limiting me from finding what the engine combo likes.
Only AFTER I'm done tuning will I try to run lower octane to see if the engine gets along with it.
That way I'm not accidentally de-tuning it to meet a lower fuel.
I will tell a story tho-
The only time I was privileged enough to partake in a day of dynomometer runs (25 yrs ago), I yanked the distributor and ignition from the Stude Avanti I drove up in, and stuck it on the dyno engine.
I played with the weights and springs on the next few pulls. My street dist and ign from my daily car was worth 34 hp over the name brand aftermarket "race" ign that we pulled from the dyno engine. (the Delco dizzy I based mine on had a lot less spark scatter and less timing-wander among cylinders than the other distributors tried- that helped)
Between Delco, Presto, and name brand aftermarkets, the Delco dist had the most stable timing. On the strobe you could see the marks shimmying or wandering a bit at different speeds with the others, but the Delco marks were dead-on and moved smoothly. I was impressed. The others had a little dance or slight wander.
I have been basically copying my "advance-weight-shaping, pivot-grinding, and spring-choice" procedure ever since for the 259 cubic inch drag car with the wheels in the air that you see in my profile pic, and my street Studes. Using that as a base, I do small mods from there as the engine tells me.
I only have to change that setup very slightly for tuning different engine builds, but I dont know how to describe it other than say that I like more advance than the timid factory recommendations, and advance it earlier.
I talked a whole lot, and told you not much more than "Just play with more, and start it earlier"
Sorry I couldn't specify a formula.
but it does usually need more and earlier, UNLESS you went too far on compression and don't dare use much advance....

howz that for a lot of words with no formula?

WHY BE ORDINARY ?

 

So, @shedhouselife... let's see some picture of this thing!!

 

Dare-to-be-different, that was awesome! Thanks a million! I just learned so much. I appreciate it, and I look forward to playing with what the engine wants.

 

Here ya go!

 

This car is hot.

 

The Studebaker engineering folks were a frugal group. If you look a later intake manifolds, you will observe that there were cast to support both 2bbl and 4 bbl carbs. A bit of drilling and shaping makes the deuce a 4bbl.

 

On my manifold, it looks like it was only a cast for 2 barrels. But I have seen the manifolds you mentioned. I saw a pic wherein the guy ported it for a 4 barrel.