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Hotrod Ethics...I Have A Question Of Those Who Build

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by monkey's wrench, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. cavman
    Joined: Mar 23, 2005
    Posts: 635

    cavman
    Member

    People go to hell for lyin' the same as they do for stealin'.....It's not right, never will be.

    I once went to look at a low mileage, '67 Olds 442. The then owner claimed he knew the complete history of the car. He didn't. I did. He told me it was bought new by a good friend of his named Barry B. It wasn't. He went on to say that it was all orig, never wrecked, always pampered, stored winters, never abused. Yeah right. The price was right, so I paid him, and asked MY friend the infamous Barry B., (yes, the one and the same Barry B he was talking about) who went with me to look at it, to help me load it on the trailer. This guy's face turned the same shade red as the Olds, and he went in his house never to return. To this day he won't look me in the eye.... Lyin' prick.
     
  2. proartguy
    Joined: Apr 13, 2009
    Posts: 476

    proartguy
    Member
    from Sparks, NV

    I ran across one of my old rides that was in "show condition" when I sold it. It had been through a couple of owners in 20 years and was now a different color. I found the owner and explained I thought it had been mine. It turned out the prior owner had claimed it as his build for years. I identified details before we approached the car so the present owner realized I had built it. I offered to send him a history with photos that showed it from old stocker to show winner, which I did. Not for the credit, but to document the car.

    In an era where "survivors "are sold at a premium and the creation of patina finished cars abounds opportunity for fraud or at least deception becomes more prevalent. It was good to see a picture of the subject of this thread, now it is identified. Many owners take undue credit or make false claims. But when that story becomes accepted as fact and increases the value we are all being played as fools. The best we can do is try to make sure the false claims are not perpetuated.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  3. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 6,538

    73RR
    Member


    ...apparently, lots-o-folks do....

    We all do 'work' in some fashion, for some type of 'reimbursement'. It is up to the 'worker' to decide the value of his/her time and talent and the type of expected pay. Once you have received the 'reimbursements' the contract is closed, you are out of the loop.
    Yes, liars will eventually be found out as Karma can be a cruel bitch, but stessing about what the dick claims isn't going to pay the bills.

    Take photos and hang them in your office/shop and take pride in your own work. Move on to the next job and use the photos in your advertising.

    .
     
  4. You stated you did it for therapy, not recognition.
     
  5. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,154

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    This is the most limp-wristed statement one could ever levy against the craftsmen who do this type of work. Privilege my ass. Anyone who'd ever try to tell me I'm "privileged" to be working for them would get the privilege of my workboot up their ass.

    I always thought it was something mutually entered into by 2 people of common interests and visions. Never in my 40+yrs at this have I ever felt privileged to ply my wares and talents, but I know a few who've left thinking it was the other way around. News flash, it wasn't a privilege for them either. "We" created something together many times over with some, only once or twice with others. If you have to feel privileged, well it sucks to be you.

    To the OP, there's an understanding with my base why I do what I do and never once has anyone tried to take credit for my talents. You happen to have worked for someone who's life is so small they need to seek the recognition of others any way they can get it. You know the truth, when it comes up tell it. And hanging the pics in your shop is great advice. In this biz you'll get it the other way from time to time, someone saying you did some shit pile in order to boost it's value when you had nothing to do with it. Happened to me 2yrs ago, a claim was made that I'd tubbed some bracket racer that was for sale. It worked out OK though. One of the guys looking at it said, "Knowing him as well as I do, I can say he had nothing to do with this pile. Good luck with your bullshit story.", and they left. Hang in there. This isn't an easy way to make a living and you ain't seen nuthin yet. FWIW, I too lost my dear Mom to cancer while restoring a 68 Shelby. I can dig the therapy end of it, and I'm certain it wasn't the only motivation you had for the project.
     
  6. 1928chevycoupe
    Joined: Jun 4, 2012
    Posts: 217

    1928chevycoupe
    Member

    As Obama would say "You didnt build that!" :D

    Seriously, you cant control what other people do, if he wants to lie, thats his life. Obviously he is a very insecure guy that doesnt feel good about himself unless he tells people he has something that he doesnt.
    However, you dont need to stoop to his level and follow him around and try to bust him.

    Just be classy and post pics of the car on your website to generate business. (you have done enough by starting this thread)

    Lastly, as said by many, telling people you built a car is one thing (and a common lie), but telling people a car is something that its not - is fraud, a MUCH worse type of lie, (thats costs people money!) We dont need any more of that in this hobby.
     
  7. Okay, I've read all of this. Now I think most people understand how I feel. Trust me, I see both sides of it. The being torqued, and the " been paid, done deal.." That was why I was posting this. I didn't mean to out the car in this thread, that's why I didn't say what car.
    The main reason for my frustration was simple. As my first build out of the gate, I couldn't have asked for a better candidate than a deuce 3 window. Now, since nobody was going to be told I did it, it doesn't help perpetuate my career as a builder. The guy wanted the car to look old. I feel I did that job pretty well. I understand it isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it has a good look(I think). Not to mention, I'll be the first to admit I can't shoot paint, not a real paintjob. Those are the guys I feel have talent. Making it look old just means speed up aging and not worry too much about minor imperfections. In a way, yes, I am a sellout. I love the survivor cars. I also know I will probably not be able to afford one for quite awhile. You do what you can to make the house payment and feed your kids. I've airbagged minitrucks and put hydros on lowriders...we've all done things we are not proud of. I am just another dork trying to specialize, and make a living, doing what I like. That would be building hotrods.
    When I delivered the car we worked out a price, and I told him it would work "if" he told people what I'd done. I guess it's only a partial lie that I," got it running for him". It is just an omission of facts. I did a bit more than rebuild the carbs, slap a battery in it and check the brakes.
    Someone a few posts back said something along the lines of, " ..let's see how you do with a shiny one" Well, I'm working on one for myself. It isn't a deuce, just a 31 coupe. It won't have the same effect a deuce would, but hopefully it gets the point across. I was shooting to have it done by LARS, but moving and family matters have pinched it a bit. A build will go up when it's nearer to completion. For now it's under wraps, only one or two people know what it's concept is. Hopefully I am one.

    Thank you all for your condolences...It still feels weird although it's the natural cycle. It's weird knowing I've reached the point in my life where I am surely more a father, than a son.
     
  8. Oldbill51
    Joined: Jun 12, 2011
    Posts: 284

    Oldbill51
    Member

    Bullshitters bullshit!
     
  9. chrisp
    Joined: Jan 27, 2007
    Posts: 852

    chrisp
    Member

    I have a buddy who built a fake old race car, really nice can't really tell it's not genuine, when he sold the car he made it clear. Then a couple of years later he sees the car at a show with a board stating that it was the real deal and the owner was looking for it's history. Turns out the guy who bought the car sold it to somebody else as a fake, but the new buyer didn't believe him. So my friend told him that he built the car, when how and what parts he used, the guy refused to believe him saying that my friend wanted to buy the car at a fraction of it's real value (eventhough he didn't) the guy was in complete denial...
     
  10. 41GASSER
    Joined: Aug 2, 2009
    Posts: 188

    41GASSER
    Member

    Well the truth usually needs no defense. You got paid so that parts done. However you are perfectly within your right to tell anyone who asks who built the car and how it was done. I wouldn't ever hold back the truth to protect a liar. A craftsman should feel comfortable to freely discuss his work no matter who gets butt hurt.
     
  11.  
  12. Number two I've really got to like the car to work on it. Hey it's just me, what can I say?
     
  13. S_Mazza
    Joined: Apr 27, 2011
    Posts: 363

    S_Mazza
    Member

    Well, it's your opinion. I got a little carried away with the analogy silliness.

    Interesting thing about the situation in the original post:
    It sounds like the car's owner is claimin that he found the car as a survivor!, in more or less its current state. Meaning, his story gives credit to an unnamed third party who used to own it.

    Funny thing to take credit for, NOT building a cool car. :D
     
  14. monkey's wrench,
    You are absolutely correct you friend should give you credit for the build, that for anyone from my generation would just be considered common good manners. I am sure that in some households old fashoined manners still apply. If you did not have a previous agreement that he would do so he may not feel obligated to do so.

    This is the same as closing the gate after the cows get out, but I do have a friend that builds high end cars and everycar tha he builds it is stated in the written contract that he will recieve credit for the build and that he has the right to exploit any car that he builds for advertisement purposes.

    I seldom ask for credit on any build that I do, I am not trying to make a living at it and actually discourage work from people. I did build an engine then do most of the build on an el camino for a fella about 6 years ago that before I installed the engine in his car he asked me to sign the engine block. That is something that you may consider on future builds some out of the way place throw your signature on it or get some stickers or tags made up that are attached prior to the ride leaving your shop. Ya never know they may even become collectable someday.

    Anyway I know that it is too little too late. But it may be of some help in the future.

    By the way I lost my mom to cancer and old age in November, while I cannot say that I know the depths of how you feel about loosing yours I am sorry for you loss.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
  15. King Karl
    Joined: Sep 27, 2007
    Posts: 384

    King Karl
    Member
    from N.C.

    Just document all of your future builds here and leave the past in the past. (Minus the mini truck thing you've got going on)
    That way one of the other 200000 HAMB members can call bullshit for you when they see it at a show. :D
    Your old friend will get his someday and it sounds like you needed the therapy more than the recognition at the time.

    If you don't like that advice... Punch him square in the fuckn mouth!
    At least you'll feel better.
     
  16. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,154

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

     
  17. Imitation or taking credit...greatest form of flattery. Nobody takes credit for a bad job!!!
     
  18. Moon Rocket
    Joined: Dec 26, 2012
    Posts: 540

    Moon Rocket
    BANNED
    from GA

    Wonder if the wife’s plastic surgeon gets pissed every time she tells someone they’re real? :rolleyes:
     
  19. 40fordtudor
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,503

    40fordtudor
    Member

    Great solution---somewhere down the road, somebody else is likely to get screwed if this jerkoff doesn't stop bullshitting about the cars origin. Then it is a borderline crime, if that happens.
     

  20. Quoted for the fucking truth! Fucking friends fuck you around more then enemys.

    No one gets a deal anymore. Now I only help certian friends whn they have already got started and shit, so I can come by help with alittle, drink some, smoke some and high tail it outta there. No more of this building a car for cheap for friends shit.
     
  21. RayJarvis
    Joined: Oct 11, 2010
    Posts: 209

    RayJarvis
    Member

    his car. if you needed the validation on the build discuss it with him but expect nothing. sorry about the loss of your mother,my prayers and condolences. hope you get back to work soon.
     
  22. Isn't it funny that the cars that you're least proud of and just wish would go away are the one's that get "doo daded" up beyond ridiculous and often are seen at car shows where the present owners have made up signs giving full credit of the build to you???
     
  23. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 5,363

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    Ain't that the truth!!!! LOL, funny shit. (As you see the car too late and slink away) LMAO. Lippy
     
  24. Steel Coupes
    Joined: Jul 22, 2006
    Posts: 80

    Steel Coupes
    Member
    from Midwest

    I know the feeling.


    Had a, at the time, supposedly, "good friend", who didn't know which end of a screwdriver to use. Thru helping hm on his car I found out he can't even read a tape measure.


    He buys a Model A coupe, wants it chopped and a deuce frame built.
    I chopped it, went the extra mile on the chop and the custom frame, sold him my last set of 32 rails at cost, etc.


    He was on a tight budget so I done it very cheap, all with the promise that he'd tell everyone "where he got it". This was his idea....but since he was offering, it sounded great. Thought I was helping out a friend and would get some work out of the deal.


    He even went to the extreme of telling me how he was going to make up a sign board and set it out at all the shows, etc.....which I wasn't looking for fame, just tell by word of mouth at least since this is what I do for a living.


    Especially since we'd be travelling and going to the same shows, and since we were neighbors also.


    Long story short....after practically placing everything on the whole car, after the frame and chop was done, telling how and where to mount everything to get the right stance, look etc...


    Next thing you know he lets out to another friend of ours that he "doesn't want to park by me. "Will you switch spots with me" at one of the car shows.


    Then he starts having excuses on why he left for the show early, so we didn't travel together and pull in and park together...or he shows up late and has someone save him a spot on the end, etc.


    Pretty soon my wife and daughter and I start noticing that we're never seeming to get parked together ? Never thought anything of it until later.


    Then, one of our mutual friends got drunk in the hotel parking lot one night, he lets out that said "friend" , is purposely engineering the situation where we don't get parked together.....which by this time I had oddly noticed wasn't happening very often anymore. While playing the "good friend" all the time.


    Drunk friend also goes into how "friend" is always telling everyone how "he" did the chop, and built the frame...and pinched it right at the cowl, and set the motor, and grill shell correctly, and "here's what you have to do" , how the rearend placement matters to within 1/4", etc.


    So next big show, I send 4 people by that he doesn't know....


    He goes into huge "Mr. Pro Builder" speil after they say "nice ride, nice chop, did you do it ?"


    Takes full credit, even to the point of trying to drum up work for himself. Even lying about having cars "in his shop" right now.


    After asking questions of our mutual car-show-going friends now that my dim bulb has finally lit, they all confirmed his always seeming to want to get going before "we showed up" at the take off point...."they'll catch up".....or "i talked to him, they said for us to go ahead"....etc.


    It seems that you can't tell "your own" stories when the guy that done the work is only one or two cars away wthin earshot. When we get parked the next block over, he can ham it up all day.


    When quized, his wife 'fessed up told us he couldn't stand to keep telling people he didn't do the work. She even warned him that lots of people knew I did the work...and he was going to end up getting caught in the lies....he said he didn't care.


    Moral of the story is to get paid what the job is worth so you don't care what story the customer tells, so you're not expecting some future income off the work to make up for doing a huge favor for someone.
     
  25. TennesseeZ
    Joined: Nov 15, 2011
    Posts: 40

    TennesseeZ
    Member

    Been following this thread since it started. This is quite possibly the best advice I've seen so far. Smart, fair, simple, to the point.
     
  26. jhaas63
    Joined: Jan 15, 2013
    Posts: 136

    jhaas63
    Member

    This thread is depressing as hell. Sad that our buddies are the ones who screw us over. It happens to all of us and sadly, some of us have down shitty things to our friends too.
     
  27. True... I've gotten caught up in the "I built and did everything" mode and then my dear friend calmly asked me why I didn't mention Paul as the guy who actually shot the paint on the car and about Robert who sewed the interior! DOOoooooHHHHHhhhhhh!

    Got to remember these details before I "bloviate" about the build!:eek:
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  28. raymay
    Joined: Mar 2, 2008
    Posts: 2,404

    raymay
    Member

    If he is truly your friend then talk with him as a friend. No yelling or finger pointing, just a real conversation so that you both know how each of you feel about this build. You said you were trying to drum up some buisiness. Well maybe explain to him how as a friend his truck may help you show others what you can do. You both might also find ways to compromise on the "Barn Find" claim which I would agree is easily overused by many of us. Perhaps his claims could include your skills as the ones that brought back this barn find to what it is today. Now both of you can share credit for what you each contributed to the build even if your contribution sounds like it might have been more.
    Like you the last few years I went through some tough family illness issues and lost my brother who was also my best friend. I will always remember how hard it was for me the day I drove his rod onto a truck for shipping it to a new owner. The hardest day for me was yet to come when he passed away. Throughout it all I fought hard to keep my mind busy and I got creative with some of my own projects and others with family and friends. For me the satisfaction is that I was able to overcome a situation that could have easily taken me down. I know what I did. I also know that I did not always do it alone. I had friends who helped and encouraged me.
    If it is worth loosing a friend then blow your buddy off. If you turn out to be the bigger man then go back to the top of this post and talk with your friend.
    You will always know the truth. I am sure some of your buddies may have stopped by during the build and they know the truth as well.
    Ask yourself what is more important. A car that could always be replaced or your friend that might not be as easily replaced. My guess is you may already know the answer.
     
  29. flopalotofit
    Joined: Apr 1, 2010
    Posts: 130

    flopalotofit
    Member

    Maintain your self respect at all costs, take your own photos and make a book...just for you to reflect on what YOU have acomplished. All the rest doesnt matter , after all is said and done You will come out on top.! Anyone who truely knows their cars will see thru the other guys story and mark him as a bull s#@%&. flop
     
  30. flopalotofit
    Joined: Apr 1, 2010
    Posts: 130

    flopalotofit
    Member

    Experience is a lousy teacher !! You get the test first and the lesson later...
     

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