Dog427435[/Dog427435, Thanks for the great posts and especially this one of Fred Lorenzen, without doubt the greatest nurtured H-M driver. Fred was first a drag racer in Illinois and raced with Arnie Beswick. But after his first win on an oval track drag racing was over. "When I won a drag race I won a trophy" he once told me "but when I won that first oval track race I won Cash" He actually came to work at H-M doing whatever needed done. The picture below shows him when he went to work there in his early 20s. He was told by Ralph Moody that if he came to work there he would be given a chance to show what he had as a driver. The rest is history.