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Hot Rods Hemi disaster. School me...

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by junkyardgenius, Jul 18, 2020.

  1. junkyardgenius
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 841

    junkyardgenius
    Member
    from Kernow

    Today was going to be the day we fire up the blown 354 Hemi. Spun the oil pump up to pressure all ok. When we tried to install the intermediate shaft it didn’t want to go all the way in.Tried to turn the engine with a socket and bam chipped a tooth on the gear. Upon closer examination we noticed that one of the plugs threaded into the block under the distributor was contacting the gear. We can fix the plug issue but will need a new intermediate gear. People have told me to fit the intermediate shaft when the engine is on the stand because it’s easier that’s ok but then you can’t spin the oil pump up with a drill to get pressure?
     
    loudbang and Stogy like this.
  2. The intermediate shaft is a pain in the ass to pull on early Hemis but it can be done. A strong magnet helped when I pulled the gear on dad's 392. Aligning the oil pump drive tang is the difficult part of installing the gear,but it's not impossible. Use a long flat screw driver to line the best you can. Tightening the oil gallery plug most likely will have to be done with the engine or transmission pulled. There is an access plug in the back of the block to get to the inner plug.
     
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  3. 41rodderz
    Joined: Sep 27, 2010
    Posts: 5,718

    41rodderz
    Member
    from Oregon

  4. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 6,297

    Marty Strode
    Member

    I always used a pair of hooks, fashioned from 3/32 tig rod. The short leg will slip past the gear, rotate them 90 degrees and lift. The long leg allows you to control and raise the shaft. It needs to be about 10" overall length. Works every time. IMG_5164.JPG
     

  5. junkyardgenius
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 841

    junkyardgenius
    Member
    from Kernow

    Thanks for all the replies. Excuse my ignorance but once I sort the offending plug out should I be able to get the new gear in with just a good screw driver in the slot . Engine is coming out on Monday. I,ll sort out the offending plug first. I didn’t put the gear in earlier because I always like to spin the oil pump with a drill before firing up a new engine. This is my first Hemi.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
    Desoto291Hemi and loudbang like this.
  6. Sorry man,,,,Hemis are a different animal,,,it’s always the little things that get you .
    Some guys have left the inner plug out and then have little, to no ,,oil pressure ,,,it’s easy to overlook .

    And remember,,,,,it’s a Mopar,,,,with an intermediate shaft,,,,,that rides in a bushing .
    Always test fit the shaft,,,,,,sometimes the bushing is too tight and won’t let the shaft seat into it .
    Good luck man,,,,,,that old Hemi should be an awesome ride !

    Tommy
     
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  7. Jmountainjr
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 1,377

    Jmountainjr
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Were you able to retrieve the gear chip?
     
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  8. junkyardgenius
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 841

    junkyardgenius
    Member
    from Kernow

    Yep I got it. I will still drain and sieve the break in oil but 100 percent sure I have it all.
     
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  9. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,475

    George
    Member

    The plug is at the end of an oil galley. They are often drilled .050 to improve oiling of the cam/int gears. Marty is spot on with the hook. Dropping in the shaft usually takes a few tries.
     
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  10. hemihotrod66
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 491

    hemihotrod66
    Member

    It helps to drill a 50 thousandth hole in that inner oil gallery plug to supply a little additional oil to the intermediate gear....
     
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  11. junkyardgenius
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 841

    junkyardgenius
    Member
    from Kernow

    Well got the engine out and on the stand. Bad news is we have a broken cam tooth too. Looks like I,m not going anywhere for a while now.
     
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  12. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,475

    George
    Member

    Well that sucks. Was the plug not screwed in properly or did someone replace the OEM one with one too long? If you never started the engine you can reuse the lifters with the new cam.
     
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  13. woodsnwater
    Joined: Apr 4, 2016
    Posts: 497

    woodsnwater
    Member
    from North Al.

    At that point I would be throwing something across the shop. I hate it for ya man.
     
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  14. Bandit Billy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2014
    Posts: 8,150

    Bandit Billy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    When I primed the Desoto I used a magnet pick up tool to remove the intermediate shaft and used it again to re-install the shaft. Worked pretty good. I borrower a priming tool off my engine builder and had a buddy crank the engine by hand while I ran the drill to assure oil got to the rockers.

    Sorry for your troubles, hang in there. It gets better when you hear it run.
     
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  15. junkyardgenius
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 841

    junkyardgenius
    Member
    from Kernow

    Thanks guys appreciate the messages. Can't blame anyone but myself as I put the plug in, I think at some point someone has tapped the hole too deep. Not sure what to do about the plug. Will have a look around at some options.
     
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  16. Eddie
    Joined: Apr 2, 2006
    Posts: 525

    Eddie
    Member
    from Georgia

    Grind/shorten the plug from the narrow end.
     
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  17. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,475

    George
    Member

    What? Too deep wouldn't make it stick out further....
     
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  18. junkyardgenius
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 841

    junkyardgenius
    Member
    from Kernow

    Thats true, what I should of said is they have opened it up too much maybe as its a taper.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  19. As far as removing the oil pump intermediate shaft, is the 354 shaft similar at all to what Mopar used in 318s, 340s and so on? I remember years ago using a pair of external snap ring pliers like you might use on an automatic trans rebuild. They need to have flat tips as pictured below that will fit in the slot in the end of the shaft and be fairly long and narrow. Drop them down into the the slot, give them a good squeeze and turn them a bit while lifting out the shaft.

    5047-005_1.JPG
     
  20. junkyardgenius
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 841

    junkyardgenius
    Member
    from Kernow

    IP04XHead-300x265.jpg
     
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  21. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,475

    George
    Member

    As was mentioned, you might consider drilling an oiling hole.
     
  22. 1/2" wrench. Easy to throw and doesn't do much damage. I have several - a couple to throw, a couple to lose, and a couple to use.
     
  23. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 6,650

    73RR
    Member

    ...have never seen one used inside..... go back to the internal hex or the oem square drive.
    If you do not have a 50's Mopar service manual then buy one tomorrow. It will walk you through the gear/shaft install.

    .
     
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  24. junkyardgenius
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 841

    junkyardgenius
    Member
    from Kernow

    It's this plug 20180508_111037.jpg that caused the problem not the inside one.
     
  25. Nicholas Coe
    Joined: Jul 5, 2017
    Posts: 2,037

    Nicholas Coe
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Sorry for all the engine issues. I feel your pain for sure. Keep your head up. You'll build it back better than before.

    Sending positive vibes!

    Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  26. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,475

    George
    Member

    Oh, OK. Hmmmm, loctite or a dab of J B Weld I guess
     
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  27. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 6,650

    73RR
    Member

    ....good to know. Like George says, lock it in place.

    .
     
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  28. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 6,650

    73RR
    Member

    Interesting thought but, will the plier work in the depth...Have you used this in a LA engine?

    .
     
  29. paul philliup
    Joined: Oct 3, 2013
    Posts: 211

    paul philliup
    Member
    from ohio

    I ways used a large flat screw driver on LA,B, RB, and 2nd gen HEMI mopars. It also work when I was taking apart my early HEMI
     
  30. Used them a few times on a 340 we used to race some years ago. I think they were Craftsman pliers like in the pic below with longer jaws than most other brands had.

    s-l1600.jpg

    You could also use them to test the sprag in a torque converter. They were usually long enough to drop down into the snout of the converter with the jaws in the I.D. of the stator. When you squeezed the pliers the jaws would get a good bite on the internal splines of the stator. Then you'd give the pliers a quick 1/4 turn twist clockwise, then counter-clockwise. After doing this a couple of times, if the sprag was working properly, you could feel a different amount of turning resistance between turning CW and CCW. If it felt the same in both directions (usually less resistance) it meant the sprag had failed and it was now free-wheeling in both directions instead of just one direction.
     
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