HEIDT's Mustang II subframe help...

Redesign and replace.
Putting the full load of the suspension in the middle of a unsupported tube like that is a piss poor way of doing it.
By the time you have got it strong enough to take the load, it will be way heavyer than its got a right to be.

 

I don't think repair is an option.

My first choice would be to convert to a stock style lower arm,
with a strut running forwards to the frame.
Then mount the coil over on the stock type arm.
It wouldn't be as "pretty",but it would be less likely to leave you stranded,or worse.

 

Yup, the idea of using a stock arm, with strut will work very well. This is what I had in my first rod with M-II, and it took a beating for over 20,000 miles before I sold the car.
Basically put, it seems that anything the aftermarket has put out for use has not been extensively tested, and in some cases, not tested at all. If I were to do any early car again, I would utilise a suitable subframe and to hell with looks (fancy-schmancy tubular shit that breaks just doesn't cut it with me, I drive 'em). And, yes, I've done it both ways, so can speak from experience.
ElPolako - I just got your message. The above (312-310-6993) IS my number, but I left you a VM just in case.
Further, I found the print out of the previous postings on this subject, both mine of 11-09-02(titled: "Catastrophic failure, major manuf. UPDATE!!!!! PICS!!!!"), and one by Elpolako of 11-26-02 (titled "Proof positive, bad design").
I have all the photos I took of my 'problem', yet none appear on the printout due to the timing. However, ALL the pics are on the printout from Elpolako.
If someone needs/wants these, let me know at the above number.
I'm in contact with Elpolako now....

 

What bugs me the most is that ANYONE can see that such a control arm isn't going to take the beating of regular street driving. Look at the spread between the tubes...how can a single bolt absorb all the weight without twisting and eventually failing?
How could such a small cross section tube not bend with that weight load combined with regular impact?
The better fabricators here wouldn't consider building such a setup without addressing the obvious potential problems...WHY does HEIDT's build it?
Is he that STUPID or is it just greed?
A fish...I'm sure I'd but my faith in someone just because they display a fucking FISH! People amaze me sometimes...

One piece arms can be built and can be reliable, you just need to address the problems...not ignore them! This isn't rocket science...COMMON SENSE could give you a better arm than that!

One of these days something like that is gonna completely fail...people will die, and RODDERS will suffer the consequences in a safety crackdown. ALL RODDERS!

Something NEEDS to be done about this bullshit.

Bill

 

Something needs be done all right.
When mine went bad, I contacted the NHTSA and filled out the appropriate forms. This HRTH should do promptly.
Spread the word to all. Most won't listen due to an attitude of "It's worked this long" and misplaced pride in worksmanship.
During my conversation with Elpolako, he mentioned that Gary was going to call me about my earlier comment. Well, he hasn't yet, and I don't suspect he will. He also called my car a P.O.S., yet he repaired it at his cost. Too, one of the repairmen (Gary doesn't actually do this) called my car the best riding street rod he has ever driven. This from the only guy at the shop to actually DRIVE my car. Guess when you're busy with fish, ride and handling don't matter much. Oh, it's true that the body doesn't look like much, but it hasn't been touched since it rolled off the Detroit assembly line in '46. However, the car racked up more than 20,000 miles in just two years, so something must have been done right.
Now when I picked up my suspension kit from Heidt's factory, I saw NOT ONE hot rod in the car park. Now, it WAS June, and the sun was shining, so conditions may not have been perfect, yet some of us WILL drive during the imperfect conditions such as occur during the typical Illinois summer. But not those, maybe, who have Heidt's components on their cars.
Anyway, back to waiting for a phone call.....
Cosmo

 

Wow, ust got a chance to read this one. I must say I never imagined that there would be such a problem with such an expensive unit. I couldnt afford that when I built my panel. I got a cross member kit from Street rod engineering in AZ, put it in myself(My first one). Picked up a stock Mustang II a arms and rack, replaced the ball joints and bushings, purchased the speedway 11" rotor kit and springs, installed it and have never had a problem. If I remember right it was approx a $1000 to complete. Satin

 

The reason I went with the tubular arm in the first place was to save weight... this IS a "high performance" vehicle... I just didn't expect the parts to suck!!! I was REALLY pleased with the heidts setup before now! Sure it was expensive, but it went together really well, and SEEMED to be working ok! So you guys think if I call and bitch enough I can get it fixed, or get new arms or something???

 

My personal opinion, I would not want it on my car...
What is the best he could possibly do for you?
Replace the bent parts for soon to be bent parts.

 

Here is the exact setup I have as far as shocks and springs. http://www.halshocks.com/shocks/mustang2_coiloverconv.html
I have the MS1365 kit. No, there is no Bump Stop on the shock, which in my mind means I definitely would've FELT if it ever bottomed out, which I don't believe it has.

 

48 Bill,
Call Bob Shetrone at Progressive Automotive, (740) 862-4696. Bob has a particular interest in pick-ups and they make the parts to fit your application, I feel confident that you will be satisfied with their products. Everybody has an occasional problem, the folks at Progressive can be held accountable for any issues that may be less then perfect. Like I said in a post yesterday, Progressive was the first to use Pinto/Mustang II front ends on their chassis in such a way that they work as advertised. I assure you that front end geometry is not a mystery to the great team at Progressive.

Shoe

 

I alsways thought the MII was picked because it was a superior design. I saw an article that said some guy was going to make Model A kits with Pinto running gear and took orders for 10,000 cars and purchased the MII front ends, then declared bankruptcy. This is what put the front end in the hands of the suspension companies. Kind of like Gear Vendors got started buying 5000 overdrives from AMC after their collapse. Sort of makes you question the suitability, doesn't it?

 

When MII factory crossmembers started getting replaced with custom pieces, it seems like all the so called "engineering" was just quick afterthought....(very quick).

Getting someone to replace their junk with more junk is a waste of time. Change direction and stir up some shit for em. As much shit as you can.

It's like getting a shit meal at any one of the chain restaurants...they "reward" you with MORE SHITTY FOOD!!!!...wow....thanks

 

Got over 100K miles on my F-1 with stock Must ll, running a big block ford and small 14s in front. Works for me.....OLDBEET

 

If it was my car, here is what I would do. I would file a lawsuit in small claims court. Cheap to file and no lawyers involved. I think the maximum is 3000 you can sue for. Then take a pile of pics in 8x10 color...and be READY...(estimates from competant frame shops and established hotrod builders) I'm not sure where you should file..(home base or their turf), but it could be easily found out.

 

I think you can still buy a replacement cross member for a Mustang II from Ford. But by the time you strip all of the garbage off of it that you don't need, you end up with a flimzy piece of stamped sheet metal. I've seen them used many times with success and I've seen them used and folks have had serious problems. There is not a lot of metal to weld to as with a custom cross member. I've had a Progressive unit in my 40 Ford since 1989 and have never had a problem. I can't speak for anyone else's engineering expertise, but Progressive replacated Ford's design dimensionally, and in doing so eliminated "bump steer", which others were having a difficult time with. The only thing dimensionally different would be the Ackerman angle, which is relative to wheelbase. Unless your car has the identical wheel base as a Mustang II, you have to ignor this issue which is not a huge factor in handling characteristics/drivability. It's important to have a good alignment shop that can also work out the bugs for you as more often then not, the Mustang II data will not work. Wheels are as equally important, Mustang II front ends are sensitive to big positive or negative off-sets, if I can remember correctly, the Mustang II used a 5" wide wheel with a neutral off-set. If you can install one of these front ends in an unaltered state, using Ford dimensions, I'd say most installations will work. Some of the nightnmares I've seen, are more commonly associate with narrowed racks, crossmenbers, etc. I know the Mustang II folks don't want to talk about using a front clip, but in non-Ford applications it works pretty good, given that it is installed properly. GM utilized a lot of engineering power developing a front clip for a Camaro and Nova, and they work well in a Hot Rod if they are installed properly. Just my thoughts.

Shoe

 

Hey guys... Just got an Email from Gary Heidt. Hope he doesn't mind me sharing with everyone, but here goes!
[ QUOTE ]
Steve, I do not understand why you did not call us with your bent arm problem. We would have replaced them in a minute for you, free of charge. I know that is not what everyone else is saying that we do, that we do not honor any warranty, etc., but is really funny how the truth and the street talk are not always the same. I do know also, that the springs that QA1 sent you are wayyyyyyy tooooooooo soft. If you had stock arms on the car with those springs, you would just have broken the shocks, or tore the bottoms out of the stock arms from bottoming out all the time. There is no spring, shock, control arm package that is designed to bottom out constantly and survive. Please call me at the shop, 1-800-841-8188 so we can get you back on the road. Thank you very much for your interest in trying to find a genuine solution to this problem, as I am genuinely interested in helping you. Gary Heidt

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say I was quite surprised, and he doesn't sound NEARLY as disagreeable as you guys let on! I thought the guy(s) I talked to when building the car were really helpful, so I was surprised to hear all the bad stuff! I thought maybe I just caught them on a good day! This Email made me VERY HAPPY! Thanks for all of your input guys, and thank you GARY HEIDT!

 

[ QUOTE ]
... as I am genuinely interested in helping you. Gary Heidt

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be interesting to compare the old arms,and the replacements,on a bathroom scale.

 

http://hotrodders.com/showthread.php?s=8709d5b685db184df0a9078bf6971441&threadid=25753&highlight=Mustang+II
http://www.hotrodders.com/t18601.html

 

Well IF (not sayin he is, just IF) Gary's just tryin to cover his butt, for "damage control" as you call it on my car, and the one on here in the past, maybe he'll do any future problems too. After a while of replacing parts for free it could start to get expensive, so maybe he'd try to engineer a better product for PROFIT control!!! Regardless of his motives, It'll be made right with me, and things can only get better for us (hot rodders) He'll stand behind his product completely, and/or build a better product. Either way we win, right??? And as far as the springs go, he supplied the kit with 500lb springs, and I changed to 365lb springs (on the advice of the tech from QA1). I'm gonna call Gary sometime next week (Let him enjoy the Holidays) and we'll talk tech then (try to figure out what happened and how to prevent it), and I'll keep a much closer eye on the next set!

 

Really hope all works out for you. IMHO I can't see that set up ever being something that is safe. It needs a strap accross under the shock mount and then it needs reinforced arms with a deep section and it needs bump stops that don't bend the arms,etc.Weigh the stock arms and compare them to the tubuler ones. Ford did not put an ouce of metal in them that was not required. And that was for a little car!! I would put a straight axle under it or a stock MII crosmember and arms.

 

Phil posted some very interesting links.
Here is another:
Modified crossmember.

 

What I'm saying is...you REALLY should have given him a call FIRST, because no matter what he does now, it LOOKS like he's doing Damage Control!

You tossed the springs he supplied you with? I didn't realize that!
That changes things just a little doesn't it?
YOU have been a bad boy.
You did at least ASK Heidts if you could make the change or if such a change required modifications or replacement control arms, didn't you?

You didn't...did you!?!?

Why do I suddenly feel like I'm at a lynching? sigh......

Bill

 

I am glad you finally talked to gary about it. And I am not surprised he was willing to help.

And Ryan has a valid point here. Our shop happens to sell Heidts front ends. Lots of them. Under cars that get driven. The crew at Heidts has always been professional and heplful with all of their product. Contrary to the "bandwagons" slamming of the front ends here, they work.
We have sold scores of them over the years with very few serious problems. Nothing like the bent control arms shown here or Cosmos crossmember. Have you guys ever thought of the fact that Heidts happens to be the industry leader in suspensions and that has more front ends out there than all the others combined? That alone raises the odds for issues such as this. I am not saying this to fuel the fire, just to try and add some counterpoint to the mud slinging going on. I am all for putting the thumbscrews to a company producing faulty stuff but I fear the pack mentality here has gotten the best of meny.

At least ElP looked towards a cause/effect to try and get to the bottom of this with a little tact. My .02.

 

At least for me, bandwagon mentality has nothing to do with it...
If that A arm looks good to a Street Rodder, so be it.
I prefer the astetics you can get when form follows function.
With this design bending loads will be high and if it is made to be strong enough it will be heavy.
I have never worked on a Heidt so I dont know how heavy, but I can safely guess it will be a lot more than some other cars I have worked on.
One that comes to mind was a Lola ( which was also a much lighter car ) where the A arm tubes were thin enough to fish mouth with tin snips. And that car was designed to hop kerbs and rumble strips at full cornering speeds.

 

Hey guys. I called Gary today... He was very friendly, very polite, and seemed more than happy to help me figure out why my arms bent. He did tell me that they have since changed to a larger diameter, heavier wall tubing which makes a WAY stronger finished product. He put a set in the mail to me, no charge. If you guys have had bad experiences with him before, I'm sorry; I don't see where I would have any justification whatsoever to talk poorly of him! He seemed to be a genuinely nice guy to me. I will definitely continue to do business with him. Thanks to EVERYONE for the input though, it's always best to hear ALL sides of the story; right???

 

Hey guys. Got my new A arms TODAY!!! He just shipped 'em out yesterday! He was right... these arms are WAY beefier than the old ones. I don't think I could bend these if I tried!!! Thanks again everyone!

 

Hopefully he is making all his stuff heavier now.

 

AND I hope he's going back thru his records to ship a NEW set of "Beefy Arms"(tm) to EVERYONE that purchased this type setup from Heidts in the past.
THAT would prove the "Fish" isn't just a marketing ploy.

I wish Mr Heidt all the best!
He sells stuff that I don't ever intend to buy, BUT I do realize that he and the others who make up the aftermarket, offer valuable assistance to the time restricted builders, or the guys who just can't build things for themselves.
Lotsa good people in cars they could never have if it wasn't for people like Gary Heidt.

But PLEASE.....INCREASE your safety margins a little will ya?
Those "old" arms are below par in strength AND design.
I don't understand why the Coilover was even set up to load the CENTER of the arm! I would have had it much closer to the ball joint to limit the leverage effect...and a one piece cross bar near the inner bushings, or even near the coilover mounting tabs/tubes themselves would limit twisting forces on the bushings.

Well...regardless...I'm glad he's redesigned the setup to make it safer!

Hmmmm...I WONDER are the "Strut arm eliminator" kits redesigned or do they still have the same layout as before?

Bill