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HA/GR Rules...

Discussion in 'HA/GR' started by Ryan, Oct 8, 2008.

  1. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,491

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    What is the good news "If you are looking to run a straight 6 with exotic heads" ?

    Are auto trans still illegal?

    Are 1961 Autolite 2V (2100 series) carbs 'era specific' enough?

    Is there a minimum e.t.?
     
  2. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 3,888

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    No idea about "exotic heads".

    As the police adviser in our car club used to say back in the '60s, "ileagle is a sick bird, it's unlawful".:rolleyes: If you want to build with an automatic just build to the SDRA or NW/VR rules. HA/GR still requires a manual transmission.

    If the carbs were built "pre-'62" they should be OK, just no 4bbl carbs.

    No minimum e.t. is listed here in the states although the Aussies do have a minimum.

    The thing that seems to get lost on some people building for this class is that the whole idea is of garage built cars like they were back in the early days. It's not really about how fast or quick you can go, it's about how you go fast and quick. Rule #20 does a pretty good job of equalizing the cars as there is a limit to how much horsepower you can hook up with a 6" bias ply tire. This isn't like living in the N(o)H(ot)R(ods)A(llowed) world, it's a time machine to the days of untreated asphalt, flag starts and innovation. You can go faster and quicker in many street driven door slammers, even many new cars out of the showrooms if that's what you want, but it's hard to feel you are racing in the 1950s in a Mustang or SBC powered Nova.
     
  3. Old6rodder
    Joined: Jun 20, 2006
    Posts: 2,396

    Old6rodder
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from SoCal
    1. HA/GR owners group


    Pretty much what it is, except for the exotic heads thing. To the best of my knowledge, they never did follow up on that wrinkle. At least, I don't recall ever reading anything further here on the site.
     
  4. RacerRoy3
    Joined: Jan 18, 2012
    Posts: 175

    RacerRoy3
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If a person does some in-depth study about the early day of hot rodding it is very clear that "exotic" heads were very common. OHV conversions, aluminum heads, hybrids (Overhead intake valves with the exhaust valve still in the block), welded ports and combustion chambers. Then there was the "cream", the Riley and a host of others for the "bangers", the Ardun and other V-8 replacement heads and the Fisher and Howard 12 port designs for the Stovebolt and GMC.

    To minimize the expense it was common for one person (or group) to own the engine and another to supply the chassis. Quite often an engine would end up in several different vehicles in its life time. And of course there were the "club cars" which were joint efforts of a like minded group of gear heads.

    The current low e.t. restrictions of some organizations are intended to keep the costs down and to appease the regulatory "gods". The pioneers of our sport certainly did not have to contend with such restrictions.
     
  5. old sparks
    Joined: Mar 12, 2012
    Posts: 407

    old sparks
    Member

    It would seem that the hard and fast adherence to the rules is crippling the growth of the class. The real equalizer is the 6 inch tire. All but one or two races during the year are bracket classes ( invented to keep costs down and racetracks open). I will say this, eagle field is incredible fun even to a person who is looking for a time slip.
     
  6. spanners
    Joined: Feb 24, 2009
    Posts: 587

    spanners
    Member

    In Australia we don't have easy access to a lot of early go-faster gear because we didn't have the population base to warrant it. As an example, there used to be a crossflow head available for the Holden Grey motor I use. Back in the sixties only a few were made because the only ones using them were speedway racers and a few race cars. These heads are pretty rare and the last one I heard of sold for $10,000. No, I didn't put too many noughts on the end.
    I use a lower budget version, a Yella Terra head. The beauty of this is it keeps things in my budget and I can play with porting and valves without throwing big wads of money at it.
    If I used a crossflow head, it would increase H.P. from 90hp at present to close to 200hp. These are figures from dyno testing from the days of old. I'd be hard pressed to get that HP to the tyres , not to mention putting more stress on the rest of the driveline. Stronger driveline means more money . I'd rather spend the extra money, if I had it, on a Slingshot or Altered . I'm having a ball with what I've got.
     
  7. bobw
    Joined: Mar 24, 2006
    Posts: 2,309

    bobw
    Member

    Here's my take on these race cars: If you live in an area where there are a few of them then it would be great fun to build and race one. Hanging around with like minded people and running the car against similiar cars, with winning being a secondary objective can't be beat. But, if you are a lone HA/GR-style car in a remote area (like I am) then the uniqueness of this style car loses some of its appeal. At a typical Test and Tune session or Bracket Race, only a handful of the people there have any idea of what my car represents. Most of the rest just think it's odd. These cars were around for only a few short years and then supplanted by slingshots.
    I believe I could have just as much fun with any open cockpit style car, be it Altered, Slingshot Dragster or Comp built to represent the late 1950's.
    To me, HA/GR , SDRA or whatever isn't a nationwide class, it is a local gathering of individuals whom have built cars to a guideline based on the original HAMB notion, but modified to suit the regional group's wishes. At ANRA races it is an unofficial class within a bracket (correct me if I'm wrong). The Australian, Oregon and Oklahoma groups have achieved official class status where they race. That's great. Wish that was happening here. For me, out here all alone I am just another car within an E.T. bracket.
    Because these cars represent the earliest days of drag racing, when you add the required cage and all the other safety bells and whistles it takes away from the raw, reckless look of the originals. Those requirements look less hideous on an Altered, Comp or Slingshot. Old 6 Rodder's Modified Roadster is an excellent example.

    Just my humble opinion.
     
  8. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,491

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    bobw, I agree with what you are saying. One thing that worries me about these nostalgic looking cars being built is the lack of regard for incorporating the latest safety requirements. Maybe its because I've needed such safety devices at times during my own driving career (you haven't sweated until you've sweated from half of a broken spinning driveshaft slamming up against your bum and hoping the driveshaft tunnel does its job!) that I think safety should trump authenticity for any replica or reconstruction car that will compete.

    As an example, look at the video of the tribute replica Mooneyes dragster crash, if you haven't seen it previously. Boy, I sure was wishing that driver was in a modern cage. He didn't get seriously hurt but that was largely luck as he was exposed. The fact that he hit going backwards may have saved his head.

     
  9. bobw
    Joined: Mar 24, 2006
    Posts: 2,309

    bobw
    Member

    FTF, I, and most of the HA/GR & SRDA guys are building to pass tech where they race. My car meets NHRA 10.00 second and slower Altered requirements.
    My point is, the 50's "rail jobs" that are the basis for the HA/GR type build nowdays were so bare bones that building a legal one today is darn near impossible. A legal cage is so prominent hanging out there that it takes away from the early 50's appearance. By the late 50's slingshots were prevalent. It's easier to put a legal cage on one of them and shroud it with side panels to make it less noticeable.
    I think my car looks like an Altered without a body. That might get rectified by adding a body like Old6rodder did. I hate to add weight though.
     
  10. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 3,888

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    A glass T bucket doesn't weigh that much (mine with turtledeck weighs 35 lbs) and I prefer the altered and modified roadster style cars. I believe that Old6Rodder's Overland body assembly with hood, grill shell and internal bracing weighs less than 100 lbs and it's steel.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2014
  11. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,491

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Everything's a trade-off, I suppose. Including safety vs authenticity.
     
  12. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,411

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    A few years ago I was complaining about the cost of meeting new safety standards at Bonneville. Since then I have witnessed three wrecks where the drivers were not killed because of modern rules and one where he was in spite of them. If I have to choose between looking like a photo in a '50s magazine or living to race another day I'll chose the latter.
     
  13. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 3,888

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    Don't really see the trade off with our 6 point cage. 100_2027.JPG
     
  14. Old6rodder
    Joined: Jun 20, 2006
    Posts: 2,396

    Old6rodder
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from SoCal
    1. HA/GR owners group

    First, let me state ......

    I have no quibble with anyone running as much safety engineering & equipment as they want, any more than I have a problem with'em wearing brain buckets while on their putts. They're smarter than I, by most folks standards.
    Nor do I have a problem with mandated rules for the protection of others from my actions, and me from theirs. These are the responsible and desirable opinions of any societally conscientious person.

    I do have a great deal of resentment at (and resistance to) being forced to anyone else's standards as regards my own personal safety. My body does not belong to the government of any group, nor to anyone but me. "Your" (sic) queasiness at my personal choices is in no way sufficient cause for limiting'em, any more than mine would be at yours.

    So, with these things said ......

    Our specific problem (re, the "authenticity" vs safety of our HAMBster class cars) is far more the result of our strictly adversarial legal system, coupled with our society's chronic want to evade personal responsibility, than anything else.

    So, in actual fact, our only options are but three ......
    To accept the loss of "purity", and build to the rules of existing governing bodies in order to run at their strips.
    To build "outlaw", and take our attendance to such strips as will run us that way.
    To take it back to the street, illegal, and irresponsible to our society.

    Personally, I choose option #2 first, and #1 second.
    I would only consider #3 if our society saw fit to deny me both the others.
     
  15. Been tossin' my thoughts about what I wanted to post for several days and think I have it down. First off I think it would help a bunch if we could get started a thread with pictures of the cars in the time frame the Ha/Gr rules are trying to emulate. I found several on different sites with everything from rail jobs to roadster type rails with full bodies that fit the perramiter of the current rules.
    My next thought is what constitutes a slingshot?? In looking at photos' there are a bunch of cars in that era where the driver is behind the rear axle but still sitting above it.Is this something that we could possibly discuss as a group or with Ryan and those who established the rules in the begining? Say maybe allow a 12"-18" max driver setback from the axle centerline and driver seat location must be above axlehousing level?This would stay within current rules otherwise and encompass more cars of the era.It could possibly stir up some more interest aswell.
     
  16. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 3,888

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    No offense meant, but that's how the whole thing evolved way back when. At the same time the whole bunch of existing cars became obsolete and everyone started building "new style cars". Then the next guy decided that if some was good, more was better, and on and on it goes. "Why not overheads" will be the next question and gee, with all the added horsepower how about 8" slicks. Once you start modifying the rules the class starts to go away and with time it becomes a whole new class. Meanwhile there will be a few diehards out there, building "Old cars", running for the hell of it and living in the past, which in reality is what this class is about.o_O
     
  17. Crosley
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 1,018

    Crosley
    Member
    from Aridzona

    Very good points made here. Back in "the day" the parts used were near everywhere. When better parts (faster) were found, they were used. Chasing down good pre-1966 parts could be a challenge at times. I just sold a Holley 2 barrel 350 cfm carb that was OEM on an International truck : early 60's carb.

    I have no interest in a manual trans if I was to build one of these drag cars. I had a pressure plate explode in my 68 Chevelle in 1974. Came through the floor, firewall, hood, frame. That started my path on automatic trans building (dammit) . Automatic trans does require a shield too.

    So, do we pick a spot in time to build the cars to as is happening now? Create another class with rules for later cars to be built by? HA/GR ver- 2.0 ?
     
  18. old sparks
    Joined: Mar 12, 2012
    Posts: 407

    old sparks
    Member

    In reality build what suits you, it`s 99 percent bracket racing anyway. In our area there is a pro gas association, index classes 7.60 to10.60 left hand steer no electronics pro tree. Started out that way the first season Second season opened up to 11.60 and center steer. This move increased purses and car count by a bunch. What I`m saying is a little flexibility is not such a bad thing. the other thing is " I`m not in it to compete" That's bunk. Why build a competition type vehicle if you don`t want to compete. Of course there are museums and cackle fests.
     
  19. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 3,888

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    That pretty well sums it up. "Build what you want". As for not being in it to compete, I don't think anyone who builds a purpose built drag race car could truthfully claim that. Even running a pile of old parts that can't really compare to cars with shop built chassis and engines you'll still be trying your best. Like any of the many sports that exist in this world, on any given day the best team can lose. Bracket racing is about running your dial in as close as possible, heads up racing is about doing your best and if you know that the other guy is quicker you just give it your best shot and make them work for the win. I've seen races won because the hot shot missed a shift or red lighted and I've seen races lost by overconfidence. It's not whether you win or lose, it did you give it your best shot.
     
  20. 64 Dodge, No offense taken. I guess if you look at it the class has already evolved with the original Ha/Gr starting out then SDRA with a few slight changes,and now Nw/Vr cars with a few more subtle changes.
    This should be what it's all about in the end.Maybe there will spring up a group some where else that may build another offshoot of the original rules who knows??
     
  21. 64 Dodge, No offense taken. I guess if you look at it the class has already evolved with the original Ha/Gr starting out then SDRA with a few slight changes,and now Nw/Vr cars with a few more subtle changes.
    This should be what it's all about in the end.Maybe there will spring up a group some where else that may build another offshoot of the original rules who knows??
     
    cody1958 likes this.
  22. Daniel Clark
    Joined: Dec 26, 2015
    Posts: 43

    Daniel Clark



    I've googled it but it looks like the Nw/Vr's site is down. Does anyone know the rules for them? I am building an SDRA car with my pops and was just curious as to what those guys are doing.
     
  23. kevinrevin
    Joined: Jul 1, 2018
    Posts: 1

    kevinrevin

    Last post was December 2016. Is this class/race still a thing?
    I'm growing tired of going in dirt circles, and looking for something to do with a Nash 195.6 C.I. 6-banger with 3 speed manual box, and a few other older parts lying around the shop.
     
  24. CrkInsp
    Joined: Jul 17, 2006
    Posts: 510

    CrkInsp
    Member
    from B.A. OK

    The last set of rules I can find for the NW/Vr's is this.
    upload_2018-7-11_18-52-7.png
     

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