front end alignment & jackass mechanics...

so i asked the local shop about getting my front end aligned, 57 chevy, the guy says i need to supply the measurements?????

he then asks if the car has been lowered, i said yes, he says forget it, we can't get cars that have been lowered aligned......

WHAT!!!???

i am quite sure that someone has had their car aligned after being lowered.........

what "measurements" do i need to supply??????

 

needs your butt size your about to get bent over and no kiss either any body that cant align a lowered car probably cant do regular cars either go find some one else

 

Move on dude....

I had an '01 Ranger, STOCK by the way, to 3 garages before I found one that would align it.

The story was, "nope we can't align it because you got such and such part wore out".....wtf?....

At any rate, the last garage said, "sure we'll align it"....and they DID. It drove perfectly.

When you get an excuse from an alignment shop, NO matter what that excuse is, you should always understand that it means that shop Does NOT have the right equiptment.

Now, why won't they just tell you that up front? Simple...they would lose business because it would make them look incompetent. Better for them to blame you and your car.

Mechanics SUCK. If you're a mechanic and you are reading this....YOU SUCK too if you've ever lied to someone for any reason. Those who are honest of course don't suck.....Must of you suck.

The end.




.

 

alignment specs,dumbfuck!
they probably don't have a book on 57 chevy specs....
why would a "production" shop have 'em?
how many 57's they gonna align?
and depending on how far it's been lowered, it MAY NOT be alignable and you just may have to live with the best they can do.

 

They can, just choosing not to. Along the subjuct of measurements, I doubt they have any information in books or on cd/dvd that go back that far. And because it's lowered, chances are the spec would be a little different and they don't want to set it, think it's good and send you on your way and have you come back with a funky tire wear. I'm not defending them, just stating why I think they would back out on a job like that. In other words, find someplace better that's willing to put forth a little extra effort.

Jeremy

 

I bet they've been burned on custom set-ups because they used factory settings for a (say) 42 Ford, even tho it had a Camaro clip or whatever.

I was turned down by one outfit because the car was too low to get up the ramps, they were afraid it would tear the bumper cover off coming down. The real problem was their equipment was a '50's Hunter rack so I beat feet out of there.

My advice to anyone going to an alignment shop is to write on the ticket in big letters: "CENTER STEERING WHEEL" and "SET TO RECOMMENDED SETTINGS, NOT JUST WITHIN ACCEPTABLE RANGE". Telling the counter monkey does no good, it goes in one ear and out the other.

 

Where do I find an alignment spec???????

A stock 57 sits about as high as a H2 Hummer. I am pretty sure that I am not the first guy to ever lower one?????????

 

Had the same problem with my 59 Chevy panel. 4 shops and no one would do it. I finally did her myself with a tape measure, set the tow and let er' go....

 

look in a fuckin chilton's manual

caster 1P +/- 1/2

camber 1/2P +/- 1/2

toe 1/8 to 3/16"

on those cars you usually need to get special offset upper arm shafts to get any camber on them...

 

Welcome to the club, if you own an old car forget takin it to these "15 minute alignment" places. Hardly any auto business these days wants to deal with old cars cause the mechanics are lazy and and they actually have to work to align your car. Usually they don't have the special tools they need to do the job. They just look in the computer for the specs on the new cars, they don't want to actually go in the backroom and dig through the musty books that have the specs for your 57 probably in them.

That being said look around town. Find an older alignment shop with some older guys thats been doin this for years, usually on the bad side of town across the railroad tracks. They usually have the special tools they need to do your car. When you find this place don't expect them to align your car for 19.95 either. My 50 Ford was $55 bones to align the front end. They even did it when it was severly lowered and the old guy said its to low he wouldn't be able get the camber completely out at the top and that it would eat the tires. Made me sign a statement testifing to that fact. I told him to do the best he could.

The other way is to do it yourself, I am researching this and am in the process of trying to get the tools to do it. Trust me on this, if you own an old car be prepared to either learn to do it yourself or pay out the ass to have someone do it for you.

My shoebox needs a windshield, so guess what. Not one damn glass company in town will install the glass, all they know how to do now is the new glue in windshields. So I will learn to do it. Good luck man.

 

Some shops won't touch a lowered vehicle because of liability. I used to work in a tire shop that wouldn't install anything on a vehicle other than the OEM size tire... because of liability. My $.02

 

On another note, i'm sorry I called the mechanics lazy, thats really not true. Its basically liability also, they don't want to align your lowered car cause then you could bring it back and say THEY caused your tires to get eaten up. And the newer shops mostly don't have the specs or the tools. Their bread and butter is soccer moms in SUV's not worn out old cars. The new cars pay the bills.

Find an older shop or learn to do it yourself, later

 

Hey squirrel thanks for the tip but I meant the first shoebox a 49-51 Ford.

 

Lot of the newer machines don't have the specs for our cars in their fancy schmancy ass system. Also, the oil jockeys they have half-ass trained in there probably couldn't do it right anyway. The newer alignment machines use some doohickie that goes on the back wheels to align the car. Only 1 place in my area could align the car, had an older machine that my car could fit on. They did pretty much the "1/8 toe-in" thing, and got the camber close as they could. My Buick's lowered quite a bit from stock though.

 

uh yeah I figured that out...dang nicknames...

 

I will keep searching then.

Thanks for the info.

 

backyard alignments: to set the toe, set the steering wheel straight ahead and secure it so it won't budge. now measure off of the frame in the center height of the wheel the front and the rear, they should be equal or maybe a little less in the front measurment, do both sides this way,as for caster and camber, i would guess there's probably no adjustment, at least not one you want to mess with

 

backyard camber adjustment: play with the shims till the top of the wheel is out about 1/8" from the bottom, use a short level or combination square to check.

backyard toe check: jack up the front, spin the tires see if the tread is straight, doesn't wobble side to side. Put the car back on the ground, roll it forward and backward several feet to settle the suspension. Use a tape measure and a helper and compare the same place on the tread front and back on the tire when you measure across from one tire to the other, you want the back reading 3/16" wider than the front reading.

caster adjustment: I hear that there are some inexpensive plastic gages available now to check caster...haven't got them yet myself..

 

On pretty much all independent suspensions there are adjustments for caster/camber. I use circle track gauges to set my caster/camber because I don't trust shops. It's a bitch (because you have to level the suspension LOADED aka tires on the ground not on stands.

That being said, you take your car to a shop which does "new car" alignment and wonder why they can't do your car? If I owned the shop I wouldn't touch it. First off most people who own old cars care about their car and want it perfect (in their mind which means different things to different people) so they are probably a pain in the ass to deal with (I am one of those people). Second, who knows how the thing was lowered. Cut coils? Dropped spindles? Lowered spring pocket? Clipped? It isn't that straight forward as a new car. It is a can of worms that most shops don't want to deal with especially when the customer is going to want the same price as the "bang em out" civics, camrys, and SUV's. Let alone the fact that they have to go out of their way to find even the stock specs.

Most paint shops I know of that used to paint old cars now only do insurance work because they can make the most money there for the given time/effort/hassle.


My advice would be to go get the circle track gauges like I did (any round-round catalog will have them) and learn something about alignment, it is worth the time.

 

I looked for quite a while before I found a shop that would do my cycle fendered,Mustang II Model A. Finally found a older guy in a small town following in his dad's footsteps. They probably aligned Model A's back when they had new factory set-ups. Anyway, he did a bang-up, no problem,no questions job for about $45. Then he let me photo, copy and trace his rare Bear Alignment sign and I made a brand new copy of it for my shop. Eccentric,gruff guy who turned out to be pretty neat once I took the time to talk to him.

 

As an alignment tech at a Toyota dealership...

We have the brandy new Hunter system with the optical heads and DSP600 sensors. We have a sunken pit with the Hunter Rack so i need about 1 inch of ground clearance to get something on the rack.

The most "custom" alignment i've done is on my own truck, a 64 chev lowered 3/5. 3 years ago in highschool i got turned down by 5 shops as soon as they heard it was lowered. Ended up with a tire shop that had the new optical heads and all went perfect. The big issue is getting the heads to clear the fenders in order to do the rolling compensation. You have to roll back about a 1/4 turn of the tire. Usually the heads are setup vertically, mine on the back have to be set horizontally at the perfect angle to clear the fenders. By the way the optical heads are $800 a piece(x4), they warp or shatter if they are dropped and are then useless.

A customer wanted to know if i could do his 68 mustang. I asked "roundabout" questions to figure out how the vehicle was maintained, if he'd done suspension work lately etc. It truly is a royal pain in the ass to have to set the heat to every nut/bolt/sleeve and hope it all works out without breaking anything...cause then THE TECH has an argument on their hands about who's fault it is.

You can do a compensation with the wheels jacked up and hanging from the axle but it isn't as accurate and can be tough to get right and it still might not clear.

The alignment machine has specs preloaded on the computer, the book we get with the hunter goes back quite a few years...my truck and the mustang were there...but i doubt a 57 chevy is. If the car is custom, i expect the customer to tell me how they want it aligned or give me some time to find the specs, and if it can't get into spec cause of worn parts or due to customer mods, then we have the right to refuse any warranty on the alignment.

Theres a recall out now on a bunch of early 90's 4runners and tacomas, for a centre link, everyone gets toe adjusted with the recall and even going back just that far bolts and eccentrics seize, adjusters refuse to move i can refuse to do an alignment if after a suitable attempt they will not free up and the customer refuses to replace them, i can also charge more time to "free" them.

Time is money, if a shop has to have your car setup on the rack for 4 hours to fight with worn components or seized/broken bolts then it doesn't make sense for them to even attempt it.

I do agree that "old timey" alignment techs are tough to find, Toyota gave us shit for "adjusting" solid rear axles that bend like straws when the truckers cinch them down a little too much, we had 5 in one month so we decided to fix them, it only involved elongating the mounting holes 3-4mm. We caught big hell for that. Toyota won't even allow us to use shims in the rear or adjust caster on a macpherson strut. If its out, somethings bent, so find it an replace it.

I'm trying my hardest to learn the old ways, i set the toe on the recalls with a tape before they get on the rack...i've tweaked a few for the guys i like.

I'd love to align your car...if the dealership will let me.

 

I have been in the frame and alignment business for 36 years .I have to agree a lot of techs dont want to mess with anything that is not "gravy".The other techs in our shop will scramble to get a late model ford pickup,actually any ford pickup.With the proper camber bushings or eccentrics,it is an easy$150.labor. I am a car guy,and I like working on the unusual stuff that comes in.cobra kit cars,front engine dragster,dirt cars,street rods etc. We have equipment to "correct" (bend) axle beams,bend spindle supports for camber adj.,twist axles for caster adj etc etc. We use john bean computers usually,just because your computer doesnt have specs in it you can still use your own specs. I find that most of the street rods that come in have been apart,so most adjusments are free,and tie rods are new(usually).I drive lowered vehicles myself and I keep mine well aligned. I will align just about anything,and it is noted on the work order that the suspension is modified and geometry is changed.most of the guys that have lowered cars know that they arent going to get 30,000 miles out of a set of tires.

 

Like everone said, find an old shop, with a real mechanic. I took my 46 chevy to a shop and the guy acted like he was mad about having it there, but after a few minutes you could tell that it was actually interesting to him to align '46 chevy with a stock M II front end. He even complimented my work on the install. It took a while to align it, as he had to take off the tires to make adjustments to the upper A arm then put the tire back on and check! he was almost done when he told me that i had to replace the inner tie rod end on one side before he could do the toe in. I attempted to pay him for what he had done and then come back and finish it. He wouldn't take any money, just said "you'll be back" ...and i was. He said he had to charge me more than normal since it was on the rack two hours....he charged me a whole $45. Too bad he got bought out and moved to who knows where!!! Find a place like that!

 

Most alignment shops want to make the easy money on late model cars. Easy adjustments. Having worked alignments for years, I have done them all from 36 Fords to brand new wrecks from body shops! A good alignment man is getting to be a thing of the past. Most new alignment machines have a harddrive with most late cars & trucks from 75 & up. You can easily load specs for old cars or customs set-ups if you have any idea of what you`re doing! As for low riding cars, most think they will not roll up the lift. a few wood blocks on the ramps usually solves this. Also as far as someone wanting there car '' set to exact specs '' they have no idea what there talking about or they would be doing it themselves! Very, very few cars can be set to exact specs and still drive right! That`s why there are +&- in the specs. The most important thing is #1 Making it drive straight,#2 Steering wheel straight, and #3 No tire wear! This is by no means rocket science! I have had to shift cradles, woller out strut mounting holes, install kits of various types to make cars drive right. Of course this cost money! Some customers bitch a little, but they always come back!

 

What I meant about requesting the "preferred spec" is, I'm sick of paying for an alignment and the guy not even TRYING to get them TO spec. If they are within the +/- they don't even touch them. (not saying ALL alignment guys, but too many of them). I just had my Saturn aligned after struts on all 4 wheels, at a place that costs a little more but I heard good things about. All that actually got adjusted was the toe on one front. Everything else was "within tolerance" -- with one front camber at the (+) limit, the other at the (-) limit, it left there just the way I eyeballed it in my garage. He didn't even put a wrench on the struts to try to get them better. Is it "acceptable"? I suppose. It just didn't meet my expectation of setting things the best they could be -- or at least trying.

I'm sure the alignment business is like everything else in America -- cheap sells. I don't see anyone around here advertising thorough, careful alignments (or brakes, mufflers, etc). It's all about Cheap.

 

Take the specs with you. An experienced front end man can enter your specs into the computer. I had to enter my own specs for my 66 Chevelle. Don't expect them to have it.

Part of the problem with lowered cars is the wheel "head" that clips onto the wheel won't work on the rear. The wheels are way up in the well on the older cars and you can't attach the head to the wheel. You can wrap the string around the rear tires and do a 2 head alignment on an older string machine like a Hunter G111. If they have a real new machine, they might not be able to align it.

 

I always take my own specs with me. In teh case of my late model(94 ex cop Caprice) the factory specs are wrong. Aligning to those specs will eat gas milage, so I found the right specs and had them align it to that. I did have a lowered car once that the shop couldn't align. Because if how it was lowered, the caster could not be set to spec. THey were up front and told me that they couldnt set the caster, but set the camber and toe for me. They're the only place I'll trust to do my stuff(doesn't hurt that the owner's been a friend of my dad's since forever, and most of the employees are former students )

 

I may Have missed this but what tires are you running? if radials the factory specs are not what you want anyway. the geometry on those earlier GMs was not very good on my muscle cars I've had with radials and lowered ,ball park Ive come to like 0 -1/2 neg camber and about 2-3 pos caster maybe 1-2 if manual steering and a 16th to a 8th toe out. You will likely have to use offset shafts as somebody has mentioned to achieve this and sometimes its still close, but I used these specs several times on late 60's cars and they drive really good just my .02

 

I'm lucky to have a friend who races in circles and really understands sttering geometry and dynamics.

It's good to hear a few guys who have the equipment chime in here. It would be cool to have an extension to the HAMB-O-DEX for friendly alignment shops by region.

 

there is alot of money to be made by lieing...................that said, i'm a mechanic and i don't lie...............i have the bank account to prove it .



i won't die rich but i'll die honest.