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History Ford Truck, Floater, Wide Five when?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Ric Dean, Oct 24, 2017.

  1. Ric Dean
    Joined: Dec 20, 2007
    Posts: 475

    Ric Dean
    Member
    from Central NY

    Ford Truck, Live Axle, Wide Five

    ... When did Ford introduce the Truck Live Axle, Wide Five Hub?
    Thanks, ric
     
  2. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 10,223

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    Mid-30's I believe, perhaps 1935? Gary
     
  3. Ric Dean
    Joined: Dec 20, 2007
    Posts: 475

    Ric Dean
    Member
    from Central NY

    … Sorry guys I should have better explained, a Ford Truck Live Axel is a term used where the Rear Axle can be removed without first pulling the Drum off. As far as I know used only on 3/4 or 1 ton? Ford Trucks 1940s? through 50s? and having the wide 5 bolt circle Wheel same as the passenger car bolt circle that did start in 1936.
    Thanks, ric
     
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  4. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 9,654

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Those axle types are commonly referred to as 'full floating' ....i.e. the axle shaft does not carry any weight from the load, only transmits rotational force from the differential gears to the hub. The hub is mounted to the axle housing on large bearings and that carries the load weight.

    Ray
     
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  5. Yes @Hnstray is correct, I believe Ford came out with in the late 30's and they last unit 1941(?)

    Live Axels are what sprint cars or I.R.S. cars run . where the axle shaft are open and run in a bearing.[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  6. The full floating Dana 60 was first used by Ford in 1955 in the F-250, and Studebaker Trucks in '56. It is still in production today. The Dana 53 was used prior to the 60 in 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, but was still a semi-floating design. The Dana 53 was introduced post war in '46 or '47. Any full floating axle prior to the that could only have been found in 1 ton and heavier trucks.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
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  7. Pete Eastwood
    Joined: Jul 27, 2011
    Posts: 657

    Pete Eastwood
    Member
    from california

    1934 Ford "BB" trucks were the first to have the "full floating" rear axle
    '28 AA thru '33 BB trucks had tapered axles (just a bigger version of the car axle )
     
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  8. Fabber McGee
    Joined: Nov 22, 2013
    Posts: 589

    Fabber McGee
    Member

    So Rick, what is your question? Are you looking for wide 5 hubs that use floating axles? I had a West Coast Super Modified (dirt car) in the 70's that used a magnesium version of that hub on all 4 corners. Made by C.A.E. if I remember right. Used truck style spindles and bearings, front had cast aluminum caps that bolted to 4 of the 8 holes the rear axles bolted to. Available with drums cast on or a flange for discs inboard by the seal as I recall.
     
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  9. Fabber McGee
    Joined: Nov 22, 2013
    Posts: 589

    Fabber McGee
    Member

    This is on ebay now. Mine had full circle flanges, otherwise the same thing.
    s-l225 (Small).jpg
     
  10. The full float axle is easily identified by the bolts around the center holding the axle in. That's not going to be wide 5 stuff.
    image.jpeg
     
  11. Are these the hubs you are looking for?
    They are the old iron Ford 3/4 ton were introduced in 37-41. According to @Marty Strode.
    Very common in the early days of stockcar racing.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Photos and car owned by Jeffrey G. Ackerman
     
  12. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 9,654

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    ^^^^^^^^^^^THAT's the puppy!.......some may never have seen these axles/hubs......The dirt track cars of my youth often had an axle housing flange/spindle cut off the rear end and bolted onto the right front spindle and using the big hub to handle the cornering loads.

    Ray
     
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  13. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 23,505

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    What the early dirt trackers called a Floater, Being rugged and low geared didn't hurt either. From the looks of that 34 car they ran the front hubs off the same truck on the front.
    In the early 70's when I lived in Texas and worked for JT Carpenter in Waco he and his son in law both ran 3/4 ton rear axles and use a 3/4 ton rear axle spindle and hub on the right front but I don't know how they mounted them now.
     
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  14. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 3,595

    Marty Strode
    Member

    Robert, Ford used that Timken rear axle from 39-41. It was referred to as a "Split in the middle", with only one housing that removed, that axle housing was the basis for the champ quick change rear ends. The Halibrand in the photo used 2 of the housings, with a bearing spacer on one side. P1010155.JPG P1010062.JPG
     
  15. Studebaker used them as well correct?
     
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  16. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 3,595

    Marty Strode
    Member

    Yes, but I don't believe they were wide 5.
     
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  17. Ric Dean
    Joined: Dec 20, 2007
    Posts: 475

    Ric Dean
    Member
    from Central NY

     
  18. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 1,862

    GearheadsQCE
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I think that Ford used the Timken axle in 3/4 ton trucks from '39 - '52.
     
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  19. Ric Dean
    Joined: Dec 20, 2007
    Posts: 475

    Ric Dean
    Member
    from Central NY

    … I stand corrected on my terminology here is a comparison photo of a Live Axel on the LH bottom in gold irradiate and (2 Ford Floater Axles on the RH side, now are these Axels only Timken?)
    thanks, ric
    .
    Winters 3rd Member 600p .jpg
     
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  20. The ones on the right are the 12 spline Timken (Ford/Studebaker) they came in several lengths depending on what year truck.

    My dad has an old Frankland axle length chart somewhere I will see if he can put his hands on it.

    The ones on the right are modern double spline axles and drive flanges, like in a current short track car.

    Do you have any more Safety Race Hubs?

    This is my old school quick change-
    12 spline spool axles ect...
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  21. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 9,654

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    I believe Post #6 illustrates the difference between ‘live axle’ and ‘floater ‘. What the photos in post #20 show is the difference between a stock truck floater axle shaft and a refined race axle shaft and drive flange.

    Ray
     
  22. The rear you have is set up for 31 spline axles, with a 31 spline spool (maybe a locker but very unlikely) if it has double spline and drive flanges.

    If you wish to run the old 12 spline axles you will have to find an old 12 spline spool or a 3/4 ton differential and weld the side gears.
     
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  23. Fabber McGee
    Joined: Nov 22, 2013
    Posts: 589

    Fabber McGee
    Member

    That has always been my understanding, the live axle is turning on the outside surface (if you spit on it, it'll spray spit right back on you), semi floating axle is inside a housing, but doesn't carry the weight or side loading of the chassis (one end splined and one bolted to the hub), full floating is splined at each end and will stand a quite a bit of misalignment and flexing. Just the way I learned the terminology.
    I guess I never heard a name for the axles that hook the differential splines directly to the wheel and carry the weight of the chassis, haha, other than junk or illegal. Dirt track rules used to refer to the floater hub on the right front as a "Safety Hub" and it was required in many areas, also double wheel centers on the right front.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
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  24. Fabber McGee
    Joined: Nov 22, 2013
    Posts: 589

    Fabber McGee
    Member

    The pictures in post 21 brought back a lot of memories. That's the same stuff I was racing as a kid in the 70's, except I didn't have the Ford trumpets, just a tube with 6 bolts at the QC and 4 at the spindle. Sort of old fashioned stuff at that time, but still available from the big speed shops like Tognotti's in California.
     
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  25. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 1,862

    GearheadsQCE
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Just to try to explain the Timken/Ford/Studebaker a bit further.

    The Timken company designed and made the rear axle ASSEMBLIES like Marty and others have shown. I do not know if either Ford or Studebaker actually produced their own or bought them from Timken. But, what I do know is that many manufactures used them in trucks about that size. (Divco, for example)

    The axle shafts shown do not define Timken or non-Timken.

    The axles shown are flanged or double spline used in a 'Full Floater' axle assembly. As others have said, a 'Live Axle' is the designation for an exposed 'axle shaft'. Winters calls this an 'Open Tube Rear'.

    In the Quickchange business, I have heard 'Timken' used to define bearing types in both V8 and 3/4 ton styles. This is usually meant to determine if the center case was machined for ball or tapered roller pinion bearings. And, sometimes whether the side plate bearings in an 'open' tube are ball or roller. Since Timken made/makes the tapered roller bearings, those are sometimes referred to as 'Timken Axles'.

    This is a case of racers and hot rodders using a brand name to describe a part or assembly that doesn't really define the actual piece.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  26. 4wd1936
    Joined: Mar 16, 2009
    Posts: 623

    4wd1936
    Member
    from NY

    Excellent comments/explanations and that #34 car is gorgeous. Love. it!
     
  27. Let me hi-jack this thread for one moment, then let's get back to wide five floater rears.

    Clone of this car. Built and owned by Dick and Jeffrey G. Ackerman (Father and son team)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  28. Just to go backwards on this thread a little, it was my understanding that even though the stock Ford truck hub/drum is "wide 5", it is actually a different pcd to the passenger car "wide 5".

    Is this correct?
     
  29. I'm looking for a pair of drums like these if anybody knows of any?
     

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