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Technical Ford 9" pinion seal

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by thisguy65, Jun 5, 2017.

  1. thisguy65
    Joined: Apr 26, 2017
    Posts: 76

    thisguy65
    Member

    I have my rear end apart now installing new axle bearings, seals, etc.

    My two questions are

    1) When installing the pinion nut back on the torque setting used is not nearly important as the drag(pre-load) on the pinion bearings. I'm not rebuilding the third member as it's fine just pinion support and pinon are both leaking or one is leaking. So while it's out new seals all the way around.

    First step in the process is to measure the pre-load before marking the pinion and nut. I have heard anywhere between 120-180ft/lbs on the pinion nut is needed. And to go 1/16-1/8 of a turn more when installing the nut.

    However- staying at 15-20 in/lbs (for used bearing) of drag is more important than zipping the nut back on. As long as the yoke doesn't have any movement I'm good.



    2) Is it ok to put some RTV on the splines of the pinion to help prevent leaking through the pinion splines? I could of swore I read it somewhere but can't seem to find where I saw it.
     
  2. buffaloracer
    Joined: Aug 22, 2004
    Posts: 786

    buffaloracer
    Member
    from kansas

    I'd mark the nut on the pinion, remove it, replace the seals, and put it back together where it was. If you are using a solid spacer, run it down to 150 ft/lbs. If you haven't marked it use a new crush sleve and go through the whole routine.
    I wouldn't put silicon on the splines.
    Locktite on the pinion nut. A new net wouldn't be a bad idea.
     
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  3. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,635

    squirrel
    Member

    I put a new crush sleeve in, set the bearing preload to specs, and don't worry about the torque, it's always high enough.

    I also always put RTV on the splines, to keep it from leaking.
     
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  4. thisguy65
    Joined: Apr 26, 2017
    Posts: 76

    thisguy65
    Member

    So I check the preload with the third member out and it's 6-7 Inch/pounds to rotate. I'm getting another torque wrench to confirm as this one is a cheap-o.
    I read somewhere used bearings should measure 8-14 in/lbs. With the 8-14 in/lbs does that include a fully assemble rear end or with the third member remove?

    So I'm thinking to tighten the pinion nut just a little more to get it in the min spec, if it's 6in/lbs.
     
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  5. Are you using the crush sleeve replacer shim pack or the crush sleeve?
    Do you have access to a hydraulic press and with the pinion support out?
    With a shim pack.... Use a piece of tubing to press down on the assembly on the deck of the press with the pinion gear down and threads up, press on the ID of the outer pinion bearing. A little bit of drag when you try to spin it is about right by seat of the pants. Take apart and reshim to apply or remove drag.
    With a crush sleeve---press at the ID of the outer pinion bearing until you get no rock between them, carefully apply more pressure to make the bearing preload to where you can drag the pinion retainer with one finger and light drag. Install seal, yoke, sealer, nut. Then tighten the nut so you have a drag, while holding the yoke and turning the retainer assembly, to pull with one finger without much effort. Try to spin and get about 1/4 turn.
    Dry bearings, oil on seal surface of the yoke.
     
  6. The spec will only last if the bearings never wear. Don't lose any sleep over it.
    GM uses a light coat of some kind of pipe dope on the pinion splines. Not problem to seal the splines. Good idea, in fact.
     
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  7. thisguy65
    Joined: Apr 26, 2017
    Posts: 76

    thisguy65
    Member

    Patrick,
    It's a factory 31 spline unit out of a 84 bronco/ F-150. I'm just replacing the pinion seal and the pinion support seal. Going to run it so I can get the frame built. The axle are getting new bearings and seals only because the bearings have to come off in order to replace the seals.

    I mark the pinion nut but before I removed it I wanted to know the in/lbs it took to rotate it as another way to verify the pinion nut is tighten enough and still in the "sweet spot" when I got to reinstall it. Strange Engineering said 17-20 in/lbs for new taper bearings and 8-14 in/lbs for used
     
  8. This a move I learned by seat of the pants and a good 1/2" impact in hand. For me, by feel while turning the pinion yoke with a thumb and forefinger.
    My way, after replacing a seal and yoke...and under the vehicle... Run the nut down while moving the pinion around while searching for when the bearing slack is removed. Short hammers with the gun until you can rock the pinion yoke without putting a lot of effort with those two fingers. The crush sleeve acts like a spring between the bearings. All in the feel.
     
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  9. Turning effort with the whole hand like sealing a peanut butter jar won't run long. It's a tad more than overcoming the spring in doorknob assembly, and before the feeling of sitting in a chair you rocked back too far.....
     
  10. deathrowdave
    Joined: May 27, 2014
    Posts: 2,061

    deathrowdave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NKy

    Pinion support seal ? Not sure I have ever seen one on the 9in rears , I have rebuilt . There is a metal pinion support shim , not a seal on all of the stumps I have tinkered with . A "light" coat of RTV on the shim is good
     
    patrick2965 likes this.
  11. Pinion seal. When you're in the gear business and parts business you will hear many names for lumps of steel and iron, and have to understand what your customer says.
    When the pinion support/retainer of a 9 inch is out of the carrier assembly, it's not incorrect to call the pinion seal a support seal. And for further knowledge, the O-rings on the outside of the retainer do need to be replaced, and you can use a thick coat of spray paint on the retainer shims as to not cause thickness problems when you finally get your math right on pinion depth and preload.
    Daytona pinion support for a 9 inch.
    All good DRD.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
    deathrowdave likes this.
  12. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 8,159

    manyolcars

    Where are you getting good axle shaft bearings? My last ones had plastic side shields and they have not held up. I need some good Made in USA with metal side shields.
     
  13. USA Brand is common. Made is not.
    Buy Timken or National/BCA brand bearings if you can. Look for other causes for failure to include torch holes in the axle housing, nicks in the axle shaft, warped housing, simple install failures.
    A lot of acreage to cover. Gotta look for why.. And a bad parts supply will repeat problems if chosen, chicken shit priced parts, low dollar.
     
  14. thisguy65
    Joined: Apr 26, 2017
    Posts: 76

    thisguy65
    Member

    I assume your's is the big bearing end with the seal that goes between the retainer plate and the bearing it self?

    This is the cheapest I found them. I had to pick up other parts at the time. I'll put some rvt in the space between the axle housing and the OD of the bearing race to help seal up the lip of the seal a little better. Just a precaution.
    http://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/timken,SET20,wheel+bearing,1672
    Amen, I have some customers that just want to get by and cheap as possible. Autozone/Advance is where I go. While others want ti done right the first time Napa and Oreilly's for them. Still have to be careful with Oreillys'
     
  15. thisguy65
    Joined: Apr 26, 2017
    Posts: 76

    thisguy65
    Member

    I forgot to ask is it normal to get a rotation tq number going one way and a different number going the other way?

    Going counter clockwise I got 5-6in/lbs but when I went clock wise hardly anything would read on the tq wrench. Figure this might have something to do with the way the gears were meshing together going clock wise?
     
  16. The feel or torque number is pinion only. If the retainer assembly is still installed, you're feeling the bearing drag by turning the pinion in the backlash gap to the ring gear.
    If you have to grab it to turn it, you have to much drag, just your fingertips for feel.
     
  17. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,679

    Larry T
    Member

    Pinion support is sealed with o-ring.
     
  18. thisguy65
    Joined: Apr 26, 2017
    Posts: 76

    thisguy65
    Member

    I'm more of a numbers guy than a feel kinda of guy..haha Gives me reassurance in what I'm doing.

    The third member is still together. Takeing a 5 gallon bucket and cutting the bottom out works great as a stand for the 3rd member. Haven't pulled the pinion assembly out yet. When I tested the torque I rotated the wrench 2 revolutions each way.

    If what you say is the case then the ring gear drag is what would be giving me the 5-6 inch pounds one way (CCW) and 2 the other way (CW). Correct? Then by taking the pinion assembly out of the third member those numbers would be lower because of the pinion not having to turn the ring gear, correct?
     
  19. Back and forth, just touching the ring gear, not turning the ring gear.
     
  20. thisguy65
    Joined: Apr 26, 2017
    Posts: 76

    thisguy65
    Member

    I ended up tighten the pinion nut and did it to much. Everything came apart on the pinion. New sleeve and bearings tomorrow. Hope to have it back together this weekend.


    Is it ok to say I'm dreading cursing the sleeve. Those boogers always give me a hard time.
     
  21. thisguy65
    Joined: Apr 26, 2017
    Posts: 76

    thisguy65
    Member

    Ford 8.8 and 9 use the same crush sleeve?
     
  22. racer_dave
    Joined: Nov 16, 2012
    Posts: 205

    racer_dave
    Member

    I think so- you can get just the crush sleeve from advance auto parts- HELP section part # 81056. 2 per pack. new sleeve, reuse the bearings if they are good, tighten until you get the correct rotational load (16 inch pounds for used bearings I think it is). Be very careful as you get close to no play as it wont take much of a pull on the breaker bar to go from not tight enough to too tight. like 1/8 turn might be too much. If you go too far you get to start over.

    I use a big ass pipe wrench to hold the yoke and a 6pt socket, breaker bar for the nut. Both will probably need some extension tubing on them to get enough torque to tighten the nut.
     
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  23. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,679

    Larry T
    Member

    I've had to put crush sleeves in a press to get them to first start crushing and then install them. A lot of them don't want to give up that first millimeter.
     

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