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Flathead Oil pump decisions M15 or M19 ?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Sixcarb, Nov 17, 2008.

  1. Sixcarb
    Joined: Mar 5, 2004
    Posts: 1,503

    Sixcarb
    Member
    from North NJ

    I'm getting down to the final parts needed for my Flathead build and could use some help on the oil pump issue, does the m15 high volume do more to hurt certain engines if not setup tolerance wise for the extra volume, I will run the bearing tolerance somewhere between .014 & .016 at this point I'm going to use the M19 but would like to hear some opinions on this, I have pretty much went all out on this one for being just a street car and weekend racer on occasion so I need to do the right thing.
     
  2. Flatman
    Joined: Dec 20, 2005
    Posts: 1,975

    Flatman
    Member

    I'm running the M19 and have no complaints. Plenty of pressure, but all new bearings with stock clearances.:D
    I reworked mine into a full flow system.

    Flatman
     
  3. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,788

    banjorear
    Member

    Damn Joe, I'm mulling over the same thing as we speak.

    PM me. Curious on who did your machine work for I'm porting now and want to ship it out by month's end.

    Here is what I've been told.

    One guy: Don't do it. It pushes too much volume for normal range Ford clearances. It will force the pressure relief to open and create more heat. Also, if the clearances are set on the "big" side, it pushes more oil everywhere. If you are running Ross pistons (I think you are) this will force more oil against the rings and possibly creating a smoking situation

    Other guy: I only use the M-15 and have logged 1,000's of miles without fail or issue partly due to the good oiling of the M-15 pump. He does set clearences on the "big" side of stock. He also modifies for a full flow modification by tapping into the stock oil gallery at the rear of the block. He believes the extra volume of oil helps with the remote filtering system.

    Another thing to consider is (not sure what series motor you are using) but I believe a 59 series pan needs to be modified so it will clear. Not 100% certain on this.

    Good luck. Keep me posted.

    Tim
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2008
  4. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,788

    banjorear
    Member

    BTTT, I would really like some of the flathead guys to jump in on this. All inputs welcomed!
     
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  5. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    The old flathead high volume pump (the Mae West model) and the traditional Lincoln 337 require dents in pan...from pictures, I'm guessing not the new Melling one, because it seems to be just a minor extension for the longer gears (Chevy??) in the regular housing, which is the "short" pump...body of pump is well above pickup.
    Heating of oil from too much bypass seems to me to be an exaggerated problem; according to a test I read, a totally blocked pump full bypass situation barely raised the temp of a bucket of oil. Still, the normal pump seems to me to be plenty.
    I would, based on true-life horror stories Emailed to me, do this:
    1. Check fit where casting goes into block...RonH reported major leaks there due to undersize pump top!
    2. Field-strip pump bypass, verify with blue dye fit of bypass on seat. A HAMBer got one with eccentric fit here and perpetual bypass. We analyzed this one bit by bit in a late night emailathon, and we were both sure of this problem at the end. Bypass was incapable of seating on this example!
    3. Check side clearances against '49-53 shop manual specs, for end clearance (not noted by Ford) I would use SBC spec...from memory, .007??
    4. After much study of problems documented by Ron, one of the most experienced flatheaders on planet, and the HANBer, who was a good thorough mechanic and machinest, I have gotten all my '50-53 -B model pumps and their pickups out of my scrap bin and accorded them new respect. Check 'em out, get endplay tight, if wear on rotating stuff replace bushings, consider using Melling shaft and gears with careful checkout. Ford had quality control...if you want more fuss, get some of the soup your SBC books and do some port&polish fiddling with pump...
    Melling reports no comebacks, problems, or complaints with their flathead pumps. So be careful. Perfection can be dangerous!
    Old pumps so far seem to all be tight, and are from a trustworthy source, which may well have included Melling once upon a time. I bought a bunch long ago just to get the Merc and pickup tubes, and I am very glad I did.
    I can no longer go to Joblot's back room and pluck NOS Ford pumps out of a 55 gallon drum for $9.95 each!
     
  6. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,410

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    I too have heard the "bypass = heat" and "extra HP to turn" and "burn more oil" myths. By myths, I don't mean there aren't valid arguments in these positions, rather, that these issues are all overstated, IMO.

    I think it's cheap insurance. As your clearances open up with wear and age, you will still put sufficient volume through to maintain an adequate oil film between bearing and crank/rod. I see it as extending the life of your engine...again, that's just a gut feeling based on anectdotal evidence - nothing more.

    At minimum, I'd check both issues Bruce mentions above. Very real concerns that will cause significant loss of oil pressure.
     
  7. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,788

    banjorear
    Member

    FE:

    If you had both pumps at your disposal, would you run the M-15 vs. the M-19?
     
  8. mtflat
    Joined: Jan 28, 2003
    Posts: 422

    mtflat
    Member

    I put a high volume pump on a used engine 7 years ago. This is my daily driver. It's time for a rebuild, but I still have oil pressure. After I rebuild?? Probably still use the M15 and keep an eye on things.

    btw, I had to relieve the truck oil pan for the extra length of the M15
     
  9. flatjack
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 893

    flatjack
    Member

    I'm sure you misprinted your clearance specs. If you are actually running .014 - .016 clearance, you will need 2 oil pumps to feed it. Most applications will only require M-19 pump.
     
  10. Sixcarb
    Joined: Mar 5, 2004
    Posts: 1,503

    Sixcarb
    Member
    from North NJ

    Do you think that is to much to go on the loose side? On a stock setup some were up to .010 so I figured going a bit more would be safe and still spin up a bit more. What would you suggest on the high side?
     
  11. flatjack
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 893

    flatjack
    Member

    I would say .003 on the top end.
     
  12. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,071

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yup. I was going to ask if you were sure about that .014 clearance, but see that flatjack already did.
     
  13. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,410

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    I hadn't noticed those bearing specs before - they look like ring gaps or lifter clearance!
     
  14. Sixcarb
    Joined: Mar 5, 2004
    Posts: 1,503

    Sixcarb
    Member
    from North NJ

    Then I would be quite a bit off then, I will have to bring this up at the machine shop today since they are line boring, measuring bearings and fitting the crank. Thanks for the info.
     
  15. Sixcarb
    Joined: Mar 5, 2004
    Posts: 1,503

    Sixcarb
    Member
    from North NJ

    I just talked to the machine shop.....wrong info on the measurements so we are on the same page now with the .0025 to .003 across the board now. Flatjack you mentioned that the M19 will work on most applications but where would you see it as an obstacle?
     
  16. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,661

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I put a 99 block flathead in a car after a rebuild and it drank oil all summer (1,000 miles at a quart per tank of gas). The machinist and I agreed that it probably didn't seat its rings on the solid-skirt, three-ring, Jahns-type pistons. We rehoned and reringed it and it still used a lot of oil all the next summer.

    Maybe it's the high-volume pump causing this? Too much splash on the cylinder walls? Pressure gauge always reads in the 20-40 pound range.
     
  17. gas pumper
    Joined: Aug 13, 2007
    Posts: 2,951

    gas pumper
    Member

    Just to be no help at all, with today's oil products, the lubrication is way better than 60 years ago, I think you just need to add a zinc supplement. No matter which way you go with the oil pump, it's gonna live a long life.
    Unless you don't run an air cleaner.
     
  18. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,788

    banjorear
    Member

    I reveiwed Bruce Lancaster's post about some disasterous new Melling oil pump castings.

    Should one even consider purchasing the Melling rebuild kit and just freshen a stock Ford one? Early V-8 Sales in NY lists the rebuild kit for $55.00.
     
  19. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    I think with anything you buy you need to measure everything. The people I talked with were highly experienced mechanocs/builders, and I think accurately identified problems, but of course there are also plenty of people using the new pumps with fine results. Get the Ford specs on clearances and lash, then measure upper end and block like you are fitting a piston. Ford left those clearances to QC and did not put them in the manuals...
    Be aware that of course your guarantee is gone (mellings pointed this out to the people above!) as soon as you open the thing, but you can't afford not to.
    If you have a used -B late pump, open it up and see how it is doing. Gears are rarely worn, if there is shaft play see if shaft is bad or whether just new bushings will save it. Maybe there's room for longer bushings, have not examined that. Expect end play to be excessive...easy to fix, common even on late model OEM pumps. Usually done with sandpaper on flat plate!
    In other words, buy whatever you can get to fill your needs, but examine and blueprint everything, and be a bit prejudiced in favor of good original parts with Melling stripped for spring and stuff.
    Ron now uses nothing but original pumps, but commented that an O-ring would fix leak at block if necessary; there is another contact area at top of casting, a ring with a dip in it. Look that over too...I really can't discuss how that fits without actual engine in front of me! I don't see any need for high volume in a fresh engine...I think it is for the old style of really loose race engines or worn out mills. Tossing extra oil would seem a real possible danger...if more oil goes in, more has to come out at bearing edges and around cam journals.
     
  20. 2muchstuff
    Joined: Mar 17, 2004
    Posts: 302

    2muchstuff
    Member
    from Eastern KS

    My real world experience - I built an 8BA flatty last winter. Its a 276 with 4" crank and 3 5/16" bore. I set the rod and main bearing clearances at .002". After reading alot of posts on Fordbarn I followed Ron's advice and used the original oil pump. Keep in mind this engine ran before the rebuild, but was totally worn out to the point of foil behind the bearings to reduce clearances. I pulled the stock oil pump apart, including the relief valve, and checked clearances. Everything was good so the reassembled pump was used in the fresh build. I also drilled the rear oil passage in the block for the 95%? full flow filter. With a mechanical gauge at the oil inlet to the block, after the filter, the engine runs 60 lbs oil pressure at speed and 40 lbs hot idle. Like Bruce, I'm hanging onto my stock of used pumps for future builds. I don't see a need for the high volume in our flathead engines.

    I also have to admit I have always used high volume oil pumps in my typical OHV engine builds for the past 20 years. Old habits are hard to break.
     
  21. Mart
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 4,136

    Mart
    Member

    All points noted with interest, I will be putting a couple of flatmotorws together in the near future.
    OT but related.. My wife had a bmw 316 and the pressure relief valve stuck. I didn't realise what was happening, but the filter kept trying to loosen. I rigged up a device to stop it coming undone. Some time later, the filter can blew off the engine, leaving the front flange still attached. I realised what the prioblem was (after fitting a mech gauge) and reworked the relief valve - it had a step in the bore. After, I had no more problems with filters, and you could really feel the motor was easier revving, felt more powerful and cruised with less effort.
    I say this purely because I think that if you are generating more pressure than you need, and maybe flowing more volume than you need, you are robbing your engine of power that if it wasn't being sapped by the pump, would be going through to the back wheels.
    Pause for breath...
    Mart.
     
  22. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Another weird thing which I cannot evaluate: In his book, Ron discusses a crank failure in a race engine. He sent the pieces for engineering analysis, and the failure came back as caused by surface erosion from excess oil pressure at a journal! I do not remember exact terminology or have any real understanding here...just another monster out there in the dark.
    Flathead has a simple and direct oiling system, fundamentally almost identical to SBC, and you don't need any trickery there to get good pressure. Even the wartime/typical aftermarket full flow filter setup is schematically same as SBC, filtering all but rear main!
     
  23. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    And...if I lacked good original pumps, I would not hesitate to buy a new standard volume. I would simply treat it the same as I would a used one, and closely inspect every dimension of interest. If I found something not correctable, I'd toss it (guarantee void once opened, rmrmber!) and try again. Still cheaper and easier than putting a new engine on the road and discovering low pressure...
     
    48fordnut likes this.

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