My flathead is running really good now EXCEPT that it runs very hot. Doesn't overheat, but just about. What temp thermostats are you guys using? And both the pellets go into the engine block right? (stupid question but they weren't in the engine when I got it and the shop manual doesn't specifically say. I assumed, yes) What other things can I do to lower the temp? All suggestions are appreciated! The shoebox question is, how much will cutting 2 coils lower the front of my '51? And further along those lines, how many can you cut before you are smacking the bumpstops on every pebble? TDC
you can advance the timeing, it works, drops the temp about 20 degrees, i also use 160 thermo's and run 50 weight oil, the oil makes a big diff... hope that helps, tuck
I have the timing set at just before TDC and it seems to run the best there. Where is your timing set? BTDC or ATDC? I am running 180 thermos. Do your 160's ever close? That seems a little low. how does the oil make a difference? I am running 30 weight. I will go up if it will make a difference! Thanks! TDC
You can even run washers instead of thermostats in the Summer months. As far as the coils. I would just cut them one at a time. One coil should give you about 2-3 inches drop (depending on the condition of your springs) Don't heat them! HC
If you cut two coils from old springs, you will be on the bumpstops all the time, using the rubber as your suspension. Bad as it sounds, this is not intolerable, but I'd use fresh rubber.
[ QUOTE ] 2 coils will be on the bumper jack! maybe one and a half and thats about it... [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If you cut two coils from old springs, you will be on the bumpstops all the time, using the rubber as your suspension. [/ QUOTE ] Tuck and 50Fraud are right. Even 1 1/2 are getting a little iffy. If you want a car you can use almost anywhere, cut one coil, put 14" wheels on the front and run a little smaller tire than the standard 6.70x15 size. If you still want lower, 1 1/4 coils is the max I'd cut. There are other ways to get the car low without ending up riding on the snubbers.
this is from flathead jacks site... www.flatheadjack.com this explains it without me having to type it all out... [ QUOTE ] Most flatheads are running too retarded. Early engines (like the 21A and 59A series) have no timing marks and no adjustment features if they did. It's common to hear how flatheads run too hot around town, but get'em up on the freeway into some fresh air and they cool right down again. It's not the fresh air! It's the ignition catching up with the engine and getting back in time that cools it down. It's like taking your old Ford up hill in the rain and the vacuum windshield wipers just stop. Coming back down they go like Hell and sometimes would fly right off the car! Your vacuum advance ignition is going through the same thing. Also taking your foot off the gas pedal and letting the engine back down will cool it rapidly. Again, it's bringing the engine and the ignition back into correct time. Beware, manufacturers and non-wizard hot rodders have been busy making electric fans, bigger radiators, and even strange water pump changes trying to fix the symptoms while not understanding the true problem!!! [/ QUOTE ]
i was gonna add... that i just bumped up the timeing a knotch and ran around,,, then did it again... it worked~ i can idle around all day long w/out a heat problem. As far as the oil, the thicker weight oil seems to drop temp, i notice a 10 degree diff from 30 weight. I run straight 50. i think it sticks to the block better, doesnt run back to the pan as fast...
You may well have advance problems that don't directly relate to your initial timing if you have the stock distributor. First, since all is controlled by a diaphragm, a hole in that means no advance or perhaps advance that declines if there's a slow leak. Second, the 'phragm is pulled by pressure drops at two sources: At part throttle, it is moved by ported vac from the carb base. That part usually works OK, and the first rodders who worked with '49 Fords noted that stockers would often accelerate better at 3/4 throttle than at full. At full throttle, there is virtually no drop at the ported vac source, and the impulse comes from venturi signal, the pressure drop in the venturi area of the carb responsible for pulling in gas from the main circuit. This signal is rather weak, and declines further if engine is tired or modified. The vac hookup on the back of your carb is fed by two tiny passages, one down to the carb base, the other up to a venturi. You need to know what your advance is at the running speed and condition where the overheating occurs, and you CANNOT find out by revving the car in neutral because the vac and venturi conditions are entirely different than they would be under load. First, get one of those vac pump tools and verify that your diaphragm actually moves the plate AND can hold that move for a while. If the diaphragm seems OK, the only way I can think of to measure advance on the road (short of having a brave friend ride the fender with a timing light) is to first "T" a vac gauge into the distributor line (NOT a manifold vac source) and read the actual signal at the speed and load condition that causes overheat. Then disconnect line from carb end, use SAME gauge as in road test, and apply the same vac level using a hand pump. Read actual advance on pulley--you can easily compute width of a degree on your pulley and measure off 5 degree lines with reasonable accuracy. Distributor springs are adjustable by eccentric pins if you wish to try flogging the curve on the stocker.
OK on the coil springs. Lets see some pics of the ride height with different amounts of coils cut. For instance, Tuck, how did you get the front of the HEX down to that level? Bruce~ either e-mail me your phone number so I can have you translate that into English or call me 920.619.9856 C9~ Tell me how to get lower without breaking the bank I have the ignition at about 3 deg BTDC. When you stomp on it it advances to something like 20-30 deg BTDC. Does that sound right? TDC
Your "stomp on it" advance sounds about right, but part of what I was saying is that this revitinneutral advance does not reflect what is happening on the road, because the advance in these particular distributors responds to load and airflow, not RPM like a centrifugal advance. That's why you need an elaborate procedure to figure out WTH is actually happening at, say, 60 MPH while going up a hill. It does sound like your diaphragm is functional, at least. I'll figure out a time and email or call tomorrow. By the way, 286 is the local guru on these distributors and one of the few humans willing to give them a chance... If advance seems OK after a thorough flogging out of the details, the other great concern is combustion leaks. This can be checked chemically by a shop with the right stuff, but the classic shade tree way is to warm uo the car, remove pump belt, upper hoses, and thermostats, fill to top of necks, and look for bubbles as the engine is revved. As with advance fiddling, this might not catch a condition that only occurs under load.
hey TDC, the hex is lowered w/ cut spring in front, 1 n a half... dont quote me. Start with one... but its got a little ride before it bump stops. the back is lowered with drop blocks, home fabricated specials... 4" to 4 1/2"... the limit anyways... it rides like a plank but thats what i dig about it... its rough around the edges. the whole thing will cost you your time, and some rec. steel.. and new U bolts.
Well, I wouldnt go so far as guru Bruce but I have spent some long hours analyzing the complete Lodomatic system (designed by Holley BTW) from intake to dizzie and how to make it play particularly with dual 94's. Bruce pretty much hit the main points, especially the rarely mentioned trick of simply tweaking the eccentric spring screws. One big cause of a poor vacuum signal, especially at part throttle is vacuum leakage right in the carb base OR even more importantly on an old carb is a restricted passage. Worn throttle rod or poor fitting plates (butterflies) can really screw up the signal. Remembering that this dizzy works off a COMBINATION of ported and venturi vacuum, it is easy to see how one can affect the other. At idle ALL the signal is coming from the port at the base of the carb. As you accelerate this signal reduces and is mixed with the venturi signal which is based on air flow coming down. At WOT all the signal is from down the air horn. Blockage or reduced diameter passages can reduce the signal to near zero. The first thing we did as kids is to toss that oil bath air cleaner and use a "hot rod" style. At least it sounded better but probably resulted in a plugged up carb. Also remember that with the very high combustion chamber turbulance in a flatty it does not like a lot of advance; about 2 deg initial is enough to start with. As Bruce knows I pretty much live with a vacuum gauge inside the car when setting up a flathead, it takes 90% of the guesswork out of tuning and troubleshooting.
286~ Thanks. Your knowledge is unbelievable! OK lets get back to making my car run cooler. (I know that the timing has a big impact on that) What else can a guy do? I am going to change the oil and the thermostats today. What else? TDC
I am no flathead guru by anymeans but I was told by one that the key to getting the flathead to run cool is by getting the water flowing to the hot side. By nature the flathead runs hotter on one side. This is because there is two water pumps and invariably one will pump water faster. can't be avoided. Soooo... to get the thing to cool best you should run two differing thermostats. Say a 160 and a 180. Put the 160 on the hot side and it will get more flow. This is only part the whole cooling equation but a trick you might want to explore with your ride. Do you have a temp gauge on each head?
Friction = HEAT so using the slipperiest oil helps a lot. I prefer Castrol 20W50, they also have a new blend out for high mileage engines. Pull the thermostat housings and drain the water out of the engine and radiator. See how much scale you have in the heads and radiator. There is not much you can do in the engine but get the radiator cleaned at least. If you are circulating a bunch of crud in the system it is easy to foul the thermostat and another thing that plugs up is the little bypass hole in the head/gasket. Also causing overheating is a too lean mixture. Read the plugs, check the jet size if you dont know the history of the carb; .051 is stock at sea level.
[ QUOTE ] C9~ Tell me how to get lower without breaking the bank [/ QUOTE ] One way I always liked - and keep it within reason - is to duplicate the A-arm's outer Acme threaded lower spindle pivots. Add the threaded pieces to a piece of the proper thickness steel - I've seen 1/4" used in the good ol daze - and weld the steel pieces (which now incorporate the Acme threaded pieces within) above the stock spindle pivot threads. Appropriate bracing as required and seriously good welding required. One reason you don't want to go too far with the drop at the outer end of the A-arm is the geometry of the front end is changed. I would say an inch and a half to two inches would be the max you would want. I had a pair of these in my 50 Ford sedan along with two coils cut. The spindle drop was about 4". There was a bit of suspension travel left due to the rubber snubbers were cut down - which is a mistake. The snubbers are designed to take up a "bottom-out" gradually. The car was so low you couldn't roll a tennis ball under the front crossmember. Dragged the front crossmember when crossing a slightly deeper than normal gutter when crossing a side street. Keep it within reason drop-wise on the spindle and the front end geometry won't be affected too badly and the car will be usable for more than sitting around the rod run on Saturday nights.
286~ I am going to pull the thermostats and replace with 160 degree. The radiator is brand new! I flushed the block with the garden hose prior to starting it and got a bunch of crap out of it, I don't see anything floating or bubbling threw the upper tank while it is running. I am still going to drain and reflush. I just rebuilt the carb myself and rejetted to stock. The carb is adjusted great, with the helpof my dad's "Tune and test" machine from the late sixties. I am going to change my oil today also. Now I don't know who to go with, you or Tuck. A lot of people swear by the SAE 30, 40, 50 etc. and some people say that the modern blended oil is the better way. ie 20w50. I suppose I could try one and see if it helps and then try the other on the next oil change. There also might be a valve going bad. #1 cylinder sounds like a castenette now . It didn't when I first got it running We shall see, TDC
Take a look at the thermometer. Its not the time of the year for 160 thermostats. Run a test on your 180's in the kitchen and see if they are opening properly. Ive never had an overheating problem in my Vicky with the 286 and always use 180's; same in all the engines I build. I dont know of any serious flathead builder that would run a single weight in this century; on a non strip build that is. The additive packages just arent the same and besides the last thing I want to do in cold weather is to crank my engine on 50W sludge. But that is an argument that will probably last another century, just like studs vs bolts.
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