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Projects Finding the spot for the SBF

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by PetesPonies, Jun 6, 2020.

  1. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 4,308

    Budget36
    Member

    Curious, is that a stock A frame and is body bolted as-factory?

    Seems with all your clearance reversing the firewall wasn't needed...heck, a SBC doesn't leave that much room!
     
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  2. redo32
    Joined: Jul 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,732

    redo32
    Member

    Pete, it's late & I don't feel like typing a bunch. I found this list of tips on Welders Series. He has built a ton of cars and chassis and manufactures high quality parts including the style of mounts you are using

    Points to consider (in no particular order):

    . Many factors affect the location of the motor in a street rod chassis. Plan ahead.

    . The frame should be at ride height and rake when mounting the motor/trans.


    . Get Inline Empire Driveline tech sheet re driveline angles. (http://www.iedls.com/ptsetup.html)

    . Carb does not have to be level, but try to be close.

    . Pinion angle (up at the front) should be the same as the crank/trans angle (down at the rear) and the u-joint angle should be 3 degrees or less.

    . Crank c/l does not have to be in line with the pinion when viewed from above.

    . Crank/transmission line does not have to parallel with the frame c/l when viewed from above. e.g. The transmission is in the center of the frame (located because of the stock x-member passage) and the front of the motor is offset to one side (usually the passenger) for clearance. The 3 degree u-joint angle is the determining factor, as above. (Per Inland Empire Driveline/Armando)

    . Have motor/trans to know the clearances required.

    . Have the rad mounted. It often can be moved, but sometimes must be in a specific location (and sometimes on an angle).

    . Know what fan will be used so clearance can be planned.

    . Have the body mounted.

    . Have the firewall or be prepared to custom make it.

    . The floor might have to be modified for trans clearance.

    . Headers & steering will want the same space. Consider this when positioning the motor.

    . Rubber OEM mounts absorb more engine vibrations than urethane 4-bar bushings. The urethane 4-link bushing mounts usually look more “high-tech. Use the mounts that suit the style of your project rather than worrying about the amount of vibration transfer. It won’t be that much different.

    . Plan hood clearance.

    . Have the water pump installed so clearance can be planned.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
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  3. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 4,634

    continentaljohn
    Member

    It hard to say because you need to more parts to the puzzle. This is when you can box yourself into a corner and create more issues.
    I feel the steering box and shaft column need to be addressed first and tacked in place for proper alignment . As @redo32 and Steve said headers like the same place as the steering box. You didn’t say what box your using so I will guess at a Vega . With a Vega box it will go forward right where you motor mount is. This placement for the box is for a few reasons to clear the short oil filter in the front of the engine. The motor mount will be on top of the box with engine mounts like @RICH B . They are super easy to make and inexpensive rubber donut mounts. I also see the header dumps Back and remember you need to get a steering shaft thru .
    I have put a number of 302s in the early fords and these are the issues I have faced.
     
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  4. PetesPonies
    Joined: Nov 6, 2007
    Posts: 371

    PetesPonies
    Member
    from Maryland

    How is it too far forward when there is room for a normal water pump, a normal mechanical fan and a fan spacer in the front?
     
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  5. PetesPonies
    Joined: Nov 6, 2007
    Posts: 371

    PetesPonies
    Member
    from Maryland

    Good info!
     
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  6. PetesPonies
    Joined: Nov 6, 2007
    Posts: 371

    PetesPonies
    Member
    from Maryland

    No Vega, this is old school, early sixties build. Pitman arm will stick out the frame rail like stock. I have a Toyota box I'm trying to use.
     
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  7. PetesPonies
    Joined: Nov 6, 2007
    Posts: 371

    PetesPonies
    Member
    from Maryland

    Stock '30 frame.
     
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  8. PetesPonies
    Joined: Nov 6, 2007
    Posts: 371

    PetesPonies
    Member
    from Maryland

    But for the sake of exploring . . when doing a cross steering with Vega box . .where is that box mounted usually? I just like the look of the side steering.
     
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  9. badshifter
    Joined: Apr 28, 2006
    Posts: 3,232

    badshifter
    Member

    I didn’t realize “old school, early sixties build”s used Toyota steering boxes. When did that happen and where did that info come from?
     
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  10. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,032

    Dirk35
    Member

    Like the others have said, You're getting your steps out of order.

    Before you try to set that engine in, you need to mock up the front suspension, put the radiator on, check your hood and grill shell fitment, mock up the steering, then put all of the engine accessories on the front of the engine; then that will tell you where to place the engine. Also, if you're going to box those frame rails, you should be doing it before you try to build the motor mounts.

    If you place the engine too high, your fan will hit the top radiator hose. If you place the engine too low, your fan will hit the bottom radiator hose. If you place the engine too close to the radiator, your fan will hit the radiator. If you place the engine too far back, the fan wont pull air through the radiator.

    You can learn from my mistakes. I built a 1935 Ford PU in the early late 90's-early 2000s and put a 302 SBF in it, which I sold it about 15 years ago. When I built it, I set the engine too low so my answer was to use a electric fan. I should have re-built my motor mounts and raised the engine up. I also used a MII front suspension, so clearing the steering was easier.
    1935 Ford PU Firewall.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
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  11. Malcolm
    Joined: Feb 9, 2006
    Posts: 7,632

    Malcolm
    Member
    from Nebraska

    I tried to have as many components as possible in place before final engine/trans placement.
    The SBF was a tight fit. Had to flatten the firewall and mount the radiator over the front axle. (spring behind arrangement). Lots of planning, measuring, research to make it all happen.
    Vega box is located just forward of the driver's side engine mount. Steering column and u-joints/shaft all had to get packaged in, as well.

    219595_1835970411259_3137960_o.jpg
     
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  12. PetesPonies
    Joined: Nov 6, 2007
    Posts: 371

    PetesPonies
    Member
    from Maryland

    So you just want to start crap??
     
  13. PetesPonies
    Joined: Nov 6, 2007
    Posts: 371

    PetesPonies
    Member
    from Maryland

    I have been building cars my entire life. I taught Auto Shop for 20 years as well. I'm not a newbie. I'm an oldie . .that hasn't built a Model A.
    I promise you I do not need to mock up anything on the front of the engine. I restore Mustangs professionally. I have built so many SBfs, I know exactly how much room the front needs depending on what I am using. Not an issue. Drop that one guys. The radiator is going to sit in the original location. I will not be using a full hood, but the distance will be stock, not an issue. Steering I am working on now. I asked a question about placement of the Vega for something to bounce around. Instead crap heads like badshifter have to try and start something rather than answer the question. if he has no answer, then stay away. I have answered every question posed to me, that was reasonable. I have considered many thoughts and thanked people for their input. But people that just want to start something piss the hell out of me. Don't need them. I appreciate your mistakes, thanks
     
  14. PetesPonies
    Joined: Nov 6, 2007
    Posts: 371

    PetesPonies
    Member
    from Maryland

    Malcom, thanks for the Vega info. Did you see my firewall is reversed ?Do you have some detailed build pics of yours? I'd love to see more.
     
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  15. Malcolm
    Joined: Feb 9, 2006
    Posts: 7,632

    Malcolm
    Member
    from Nebraska

    Some of these may or may not be helpful.

    282777_3666705578494_560139314_n.jpg

    412887_3501704333566_2043435083_o~2.jpg

    470573_3545328224136_142989687_o~2.jpg

    615076_3745170900078_43093435_o~2.jpg
     
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  16. PetesPonies
    Joined: Nov 6, 2007
    Posts: 371

    PetesPonies
    Member
    from Maryland

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  17. As a packaging exercise, using a 29 body on a deuce frame as an example is a red herring. The OP has a 30 body an an original frame.
     
  18. PetesPonies
    Joined: Nov 6, 2007
    Posts: 371

    PetesPonies
    Member
    from Maryland

    Original frame yes. Original cowl yes. Original body?? Not so fast :)
     
  19. Malcolm
    Joined: Feb 9, 2006
    Posts: 7,632

    Malcolm
    Member
    from Nebraska

    I know... Just trying to help with some sort of visual reference.
     
  20. PASTDUEBILL
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 825

    PASTDUEBILL
    Member

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  21. 3banjos
    Joined: May 24, 2008
    Posts: 471

    3banjos
    Member
    from NZ

    holy smoke, that's sitting low
     
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  22. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 4,634

    continentaljohn
    Member

    Have you thought of using a early Mustang steering box @PetesPonies and being a mustang guy it would be in your wheel house. They mount under the framerail and were very popular in the early 70s and on.
    I usually put the motor as close to the firewall as I can as nothing good looking about empty space . Then if you have extra space in the front you can always add a Paxton supercharger . Plus with the extra room up front you can use a standard waterpump instead of a Motorsport short one . It is great to see a 289 302 in a early ford and great little motor..
     
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  23. bschwoeble
    Joined: Oct 20, 2008
    Posts: 572

    bschwoeble
    Member

    I'm glad to read that the radiator will be in the stock location. I've never been a fan of extending frame or pushing rad. forward. You see it a lot on the so called high end cars, especially on a duece.
     
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  24. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 1,269

    6sally6
    Member

    Just funn'in ye about too far forward so get an FE!!
    I was jus say'in....in an early classic Mustang the engine is placed where you can SEE a good bit of the bell housing between the engine and firewall...giving the impression that the engine could be slide back about 6 inches more to look right. Since you have a reversed firewall this will NOT be one of your problems. (although.....it may be an issue if you ever need to drop the tranny and bell to replace the clutch or something.) You could always have removable panels inside on the floor to access the bolts and linkage.
    Just thinking out loud.
    So refreshing to see a SBF going into a Ford.
    Even those Shivel-lay boys will admit......a cammed up small block Ford sounds very sweet running full tilt through the gears!:cool:
    6sally6
     
  25. Dave Mc
    Joined: Mar 8, 2011
    Posts: 2,049

    Dave Mc
    Member

    This is a TCI Frame , comes with the motor mount location pre-determined
    Cooling needs to take place at the upper area of the Radiator , so electric fan or Shroud needs to be used
    IMG_0478.JPG IMG_0476.JPG
     
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  26. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 2,814

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    IMG_0823.JPG Ah yes the incredibly rare F1 steering box only exported to Japan after the war!
    (Aka Toyota 4x4 manual box.) works great with a triangular flange welded to it like an F1 box. Mine is in a 34 frame and it clears a Desoto hemi. With a sbf you will have tons of room.
     
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  27. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 2,234

    goldmountain

    It is good to see that there are some of us not stuck in the F-100, F-1 steering box mold. If it is a good box and available and looks traditional; why not?
     
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  28. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 2,814

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    ^its adjustable, has no slop and is recirculating ball design. Steers with one finger when parked.
    They will throw shit at you for something like this and in the next breath sing the praises of an S10 T5 trans?
     
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  29. PotvinV8
    Joined: Mar 30, 2009
    Posts: 58

    PotvinV8
    Member

    As low and as far back as possible, no more than 6-degrees rake.
     
  30. bschwoeble
    Joined: Oct 20, 2008
    Posts: 572

    bschwoeble
    Member

    Excellent reply.
     

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