The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Royalshifter, Dec 21, 2007.
Blew up the pic , Looks to be a short set of wheelie bars ,, Tim Jones
SFI chassie inspection stickers have been around close to 20 years now, Unless you really know what you are looking at or its really cheap and use it for the parts, safe bet it to pass if it is not stickerd
Late 50' style
Yes I think that was his wheelie bar. Car doesnt have SFI sticker probaly has some good parts but I fill my chassis is worth more than this one.
I shipped this one last week, headed to Australia and will be Donovan powered.
Great looking car Rooman!
hey brian and roo:
On these new repop cars with the 3 point cage. Why dont they just add a siamesed roll bar in front of the 3pt. thus making it a 5pt. Welding the entire circumference of the forward rollbar to the shoulder hoop would no longer be possible but with some stitch welding and the half helmetbars welded in should be good enough to pass tech. I have been discussing with an nhra inspector and seems to be on board with the idea as long as the helmet is fully contained and unable to leave the pod in event of accident. thoughts ideas?????
kill the cackle and lets RACE!!!!!!
And look like SHIT!
Did I just print that HELL YES!
mods feel free to clean this unwarranted assault to me up. here is my response which can be left removed or edited once resolved. thanks and sorry. oh and dont worry i will post a pic in this post of our new 6.0 chassis that is awaiting its lid. i wont be running for the ridler award so i can share with the people
DUDE NO BODY ASKED YOU, DONT BS UP THIS GREAT THREAD WITH YOUR DUMB @$$ RESONSE!!!!! Oh and reread your signature you goon!!!! idiocracy at its finest...
I am trying to bring new life to this very good thread with a modern idea to an old safety issue with these type of dragster. I feel the reason for the decline of nostalgic drag racing with a general audience is that it is no different than any other motorsport today. with so much entertainment options the lack of attachment to the race cars is the reason for declining attendance and a lack of support to nostalgia racing. Modern FEDs are mostly hideous to look at. There are a few people with the proper vision of what a front motored car should look like that are building these cars. and there are people making lots of money off these chassis with a lack of regard to safety as well. i am trying to build a new base and repeat the past of many chassis shops selling frame kits to the masses and having drag race resurge. with some common knowledge base as the hamb people of like minds should be allowed a discussion of ways to address the problems. roo and king both build beautiful safe cars and have shared time energy and resources to this thread. they are my inspirations to give this thing a go.
lets put our collective brain and internet power to good use and discuss and force the the powers that be to accomodate nostalgia cars at their tracks. if we build them will they come????
I think so, we either need more eagle fields or someone willing to get the track owners to let the cars that are safely built cars come out and play, if cackle cars can get licensed to do 1/8 mile passes, why cant we run our cars at our local nhra track and have fun and bring the fans and familys back to the track and maybe pay for fuel once we show the tracks that we will come out and play and race and put on a good show. We dont need promoters taking all the money, our cars are the promoters!!!!! Let dragsters run the dragsters and smoke the hydes and burn the nitro!!! and lets give the FANS A SHOW!!!!!
SMRacing A/Fuel Dragster
1929CDAN beat me to it. I agree with him as it is a bogus way to try to get around a safety rule and will look like crap. Lack of three point cages is not what is keeping people away from the track. As you note it is the fact that there are so many more entertainment outlets compared with the past. When I was young (a long time ago) we paid people to entertain us. Now a lot of people have dirt bikes, four wheelers, jet skis etc and they entertain themselves. People now are emotionally attached to their own toys and building a hokey looking dragster is not going to help. And believe me it will look hokey.
Why not just build a currently legal double engine car or run a full body. I had customers with both at Bowling Green and they attracted a lot of interest. The double even has a flat top six point cage and high sided body but the fans still loved it. Sure both options add cost but if you want to please the fan it is much more effective than a bogus 3/5 point cage. Like it or not, the average fan in this day and age grew up a long time after the three point cage era. Sure there are a lot of gray hairs like me but looking at the bleacher population at Bowling Green we are in the minority. Remember that the front engine dragster era effectively ended over 40 years ago so anyone under sixty years old grew up with rear engine cars.
As much as I have some issues with certain aspects of John Worm's Cen-Pen cars they do have the look and show that it is possible to build a traditional looking car that complies with the current rules.
As a traditionalist I like the round top cage, big radius body look but the average (non hard core) fan nowadays usually does not notice the difference--to them is is just a front engine dragster. Flashy looking cars with full bodies and nice paint/graphics would be much more effective at building a following than a bogus three point looking cage.
Throughout the history of front engines dragsters, I know many drivers lost their lives. With the introduction of the 3 point cage, has there ever been a documented failure of this design causing bodily injury or death? I can't recall one. I think this design should be allowed for 1/8 mile passes. As far as changing the wall thickness requirements on mild steel in 1987-88. That was just a ploy NHRA did to boost sales for their series kit car sponsers like Alston, Chassis Eng ect. .134 wall tubing to this day is not availiable unless you buy a 10,000 ft. mill run. Only the big manufacturers can afford this. So what do the small chassis shops do? I've been a drag race chassis builder for over 40 years and have seen many wrecked pre .118 wall chassis cars without tubing failure. I doubt an extra .003 of thickness made any difference in any of these crashes!!!!!
My friend built one back around 1969 ,,,yes I'm getting old ,, I drove a few times ,, scary as crap ... while my friend was driving it ,, blew rear u - joint ..... almost lost right leg and his hangy down parts .....make sure you make a REALLY good scatter shield ......
I have a number of sources of .134 wall tubing if you need any and you won't have to buy 10,000 feet of it.
I am as anti NHRA at times as anyone out there but this "conspiracy to help the sponsors" is all bullshit. The .118 number was based on a nominal .120 wall tubing but I have seen that as thin as .112. The NHRA uses the SFI spec as a buffer to insulate themslves from lawsuits and SFI determined that the .120 nominal wall was the mechanical equivalent of the .083 CM option. You can still use .118 wall if you can find some .120 (nominal) that will sonic at that number but most builders elected to go with the .134 wall as a cushion against the wall variation.
The problem with the three point cage is that the early versions had the driver's head half out of the cage in many cases. The later versions had the driver behind the front hoop (just) but as a consequence the rear half of the helmet was somewhat exposed. Put a straight edge across the front hoop/rear brace and see what I mean. The current requirement for the driver's head to be at least 3" behind the front face of the hoop makes that situation even worse. A 1" helmet bar is not going to be much protection if the car gets upside down and backs into the wall (or any other solid object).
As a builder (and sometimes driver) I want my cars to be as safe as possible so I would never consider backing down from the current standards. I did not really like the big helmet pads on the nostalgia top fuel cars but they saved my head when I got Dan Horan's car bouncing from one slick to the other in the shut down area at Bakersfield.
The .134 wall tubing was brought on by the ASTM specs were change without the knowlege of the chassie manuf and the tubing company were alowed to go down to .114 wall and still label it .120. NHRA started their sonic inspection as a revenue generator and Chassie builders and Racers got caught with their pants down. You dont think all those Chassie companys took a big hit on that with cars they had built or kits they sold or that are in inventory.Their catologs said the chassies met the required specs for NHRA, but they did not and NHRA did not change the specs to help them out of this problem. The spec remains the same at .118 min, but tubing that size does not exist nor will it ever exist when dealing with ERW.
The solution is that I can purchase .083 moly cheaper than .134 erw, get it locally instead of having it shipped, give the customer a higher quality and lighter product
I dont see the wall variation a viable responce as ERW starts as flat bar and then rolled and welded. Once the machine is set to make the flat bar and sample is gauged, it does not change. .007 might not seem like much but over miles and miles of material it adds up. Industry calls it "One less olive"
Bob Edwards in 1977 @ Maple Grove was decapitated in a dragster with a 3 point roll cage, and his head was not sticking out in-front of the cage. There is a video of it out there, "fortunately" it's a grainy video, and you can't see really see very much when the car hits the guard rail with all the dust that was kicked up (it will make think a lot about never ever racing a 3 point cage car).
Marvin Schwarts (sp) first driver to be killed in a R/E dragster 5 point cage, Jimmy Nix killed when 6 point cage struck scorboard. Cage-no cage- 20 point cage, these cars can and will kill you
thanks for your opinion. you know we think highly of it! But my 3+2 cage idea is trying to redesign the wheel. It has been many decades like you said about the heyday of the fed. dad and i fell in love them at the first KY reunion with a very rough early car. the drivers story and the whole feel really struck a cord with me at that tender age. i had been to goodguys before and wanted to puke at the rows of 34 ford all exactly the same with only a different paint scheme and different billet wheels. I feel that cars/bikes can be anything that someone can imagine, and not always for the good. But without having an eye on the past and my hands on the future we will stagnate and die. its true the grayhairs are the majority and they have their nostalgic feel for what a dragster is and should be. my problem is that most people do build a RED with the motor in front now and call it a FED.
So as we are finalizing the design of the new car I tried to look at all the old cars and the new cackle cars. And dont get me started on the cackle cars and NHRA. whole nother rant. But if they start allowing cackle cars to do 1/8th mile exhibition runs with no chassis cert, with more HP now than what was ever thought possibly back in the day, how can the NHRA be such a hippocrit, people died back then on freak things, they dont think that shit can go bad in a hurry in 660feet. malarky!!!
So I just thought that if its good enough for them to make runs, why cant i step up the safety and design of a 21st century front engine dragster to bring the feel of mid 60;s back to life. I do not feel it as a cop out or taking the easy way, obviously it is the hard way trying to push the envelope. and if they wont be open to discussion of a new design then i will build it and hope that ryan and the hamb drags would let me play. how more traditional can i try and build the car!!!!!
so here is the new car, topless at the moment.
And to further add to my side. I basically am trying to find a niche so that I am not just copying Roos or Kings Car design. I know we are limited to what we can do with the SFI but I want to have the people that know, know my car as my car. Just like when i see a roo or king i know what it is, does that make sense? So now that i let the cat outta the bag, lets see how many 3+2 cages show up.
Just wanted to help take our hobby to the next level guys. I mean Ive got a 6'7" 350# NFL lineman in my car and he fit like a pair of broke in shoes!!! who says no one makes a big guy car that looks good, come on people really!!!!
Kill the Cackle and Lets RACE!!!!
Enjoy your build, but honestly you do not have a clue if your intentions are to do a traditional style 3-point and add another hoop to it. Man you are a big guy and while right now you feel that you fit the car, I can tell that you dont, adding a firesuit and helmet eats up a lot of room very quickly as if you gained 60lbs overnight, and unless you square the cage(2-bends-straight in the center) you will not be able to turn your shoulders to get out. Add a head&neck to that and you are locked in. Your arms are above the shoulder hoop and if you dont build a high side body your elbows stick out. Because of the hoop being low, you shoulder belt mounts will be too low
Build a 5, or 6 point cage, and hide it.
Just re-read the last part of the post, Sorry I thought you were describing yourself as the 350# lineman
Bob Buckley's Coating Specialties 392 hemi car out of the Chicago area. When you own both a polishing business and a powder coating facility you have a leg up on making your car look nice. Having a bunch of style also helps.
Referring above ^; Without access to SEMA I have to ask, is it SFI requirements that dictates overall size of the new style cockpit to be so large? (almost cavernous)
Is clearance space around the driver head and arms specified?
On my recent trip back to Bowling Green after several decades away, I also noticed the rear tires appear to be lower profile today. Those above appear to be no larger than 31's.
Is that because of transmission gearing and the VHT starting line used today?
Thanx; Tom S.
the cockpit is large because the owner/driver is a big guy--he fills it up with a -20 firesuit on. It probably looks a little larger than it really is because I like to put my shoulder hoop relatively high but trust me, Bob would not fit if I had made it any narrower. The front hoop of the cage is positioned so that the front of the helmet is at least 3" behind the front of the tubing as specified in the rule book. The cars from the 60's and 70's used a 6" clr bend for the cage but the current helmets are quite a bit larger so I use a 7" bend. The bigger diameter bend also makes more room for the big helmet side pads that are required on any car that runs over 180 mph. The tires in the photo are 31 x 14 and are about to be changed to 33 x 13.
I expect the bottom of the axle housing and the lower rail are closer together for ground clearance also.
If you don't mind me hitting you with many questions, What transmission is used in this car? Does this car use any sort of anti lift or wheelie bar?
VHT and rubber dragged into the starting line surface, allowed the clutches in fuelers I saw recently, lockup from the get go. The launch was unreal and 60' times on some of these cars was something I had never seen before.
Thanks; Tom S.
Bob's car has around 4" under the car at the mid plate (depending on the rear tires) and the frame rail does rake up from there back--about 2.5" higher at the point where it transitions into the rear upright. From the c/l of the axle to the bottom of the frame is about 9.5" at that point.
This car has a powerglide as per most of the non nitro burners and it does have a wheelie bar that is about 6' long. The car runs alky and should be a mid to low seven second runner.
" This car has a powerglide as per most of the non nitro burners "
Back in 77 when I quit, we were making an injected fueler run with 3 speeds and a home made 6 finger clutch and I was telling everybody convertors could be made to not balloon and work in nitro and blown cars like they were being made to work in gas cars of the time. A convertor is more forgiving than a clutch, but just not adjustable for sometimes very tricky track surfaces we had to contend with that would let the tires go up in smoke without warning anywhere along the track. Great on one pass....... up in smoke an hour later. These cars today barely re-acted away from the starting line. Phenomenal sight for me to experience. Absolutely no tire smoke anywhere down track on practically every run.
Launch flash rpm and lock-up are built in by whoever constructs a convertor. And from what I was able to see with body panels removed, clutches are pneumatically controlled with servos and solid state electronics.
I'm left wondering now if anyone is left who still fabricates their own clutch hat and floaters? Today with VHT it's a mute point, but I still have to wonder if anyone around who could tune one through an opening in the can with a strip gauge and allen wrench and little bolts and washers?
" The car runs alky and should be a mid to low seven second runner. "
From the photo, it's a show piece as well. Simply beautiful.
Thanks for the correspondence with me Roo; Tom S. in Tn.
with the current rules requiring SFI certification of everything inside (and including) the clutch can anything that runs at major events is going to have a "store bought" package.
When I crewed for Brendan Murry on his nostalgia top fueller I was often the clutch guy and was "sticking" the clutch with the feeler gauges and adding or subtracting nuts and/ or washers. We did pull the can after qualifying and service the friction surfaces. I did the same when I drove Dan Horan's top fueller.
I presume that you were at a big show event to see clutches with management systems as nostalgia top fuel (and funny car) are old school and don't run a cannon.
A couple more photos of Bob Buckley's car taken last Saturday evening at Route 66
Separate names with a comma.