Thanks no55mad for reminding me of Evans NPG. Having lost an expensive high thermal load engine due to a hairline crack in the radiator, the issue of cooling system efficiency became one of acute importance to me. I have a very rare high performance engine going into my current rebuild and will be using Evans NPG+, which I have sitting on the shelf. This eliminates all the problems with traditional coolants. I won't have to run a pressurized cooling system, run a sacrificial anode to protect the aluminum heads, can place the radiator where I want without consideration of mounting it higher than the engine and never have to worry about coolant maintenance, plugging up of the cooling system. Sure it's expensive stuff, but after the pain of the initial investment, in the long term a couple of hundred bucks to protect $$$ engines and never have to worry about it and the peace of mind that comes with that is worth every penny. Problem solved for me....
Dangerous temps are not the same between engines with coolant and without. They are also not the same between pressurized and non pressurized. That's why racers start freaking when temps get over 180. If they could run coolant, the boiling put would be higher and they could run hotter temps without fear of damage. A racer in Denver (The Mile High City) would have even greater concerns if they were running a non pressurized system because the higher the elevation the lower the boiling point. Picture a little bubble just starting to form on the cylinder wall inside the water jacket. That little bubble is like a dome preventing water from touching the metal at that point. That spot of metal is getting very hot. If we use a chemical that has a higher boiling point, that little bubble won't form until the temp gets higher than the water we used before. Also, since water boils at 212, at sea level atmospheric pressure, and less in Denver, we can increase the atmospheric pressure by capping the system. This raises the temp point at which those little bubbles form on the inside of the block. Since tracks don't allow any coolants, that I know of, bigger radiators, bigger or faster fans, oil coolers, auxillary fans thrown in front between runs, spray downs of radiators, ice on manifolds (for other reasons as well), longer times between runs, higher pressure radiator caps, etcetera are all employed and temps must be kept lower than that of the same engine with coolant on the street.
Is 75% the whole answer? Or does the increased DENSITY of the antifreze mix somewhat mitigate the loss in heat carrying ability? ( it will take less VOLUME of the mix to make a pound. This being the case, the loss in heat carrying capacity "gallon for gallon" will be less than the stated 75% ) Sometimes "raw numbers" don't tell the whole story, and in fact unless full context is considered, raw numbers can actually confuse the issue, and sink deep roots into folklore.......( i.e. did you know that 50% antifreze will only cool your car 75% as well as water alone?) The density (specific gravity?) needs to be part of the equation in order to arrive at an accurate conclusion.
Cut open a old hot water heater after its run ten years......... With well water or with out a water softenr.... Thats what your aluminum radiator will look like.
I'd drain it after each race, put in a water/antifreeze mix, run it till hot and next time you go to the track, drain the 'storage' mix (can be reused, run it through cheesecloth), flush and go to town.
What kind of racers? NASCAR engines,like em or not run as high as 230 degrees.If the intake air for induction is keep cool and you can control detonation,engines make more power and better fuel use with higher temperatures.A high pressure cooling system prevents boiling.
I find my engine runs best at 195-200, in the D1 car he runs 180 and in the 112 we don't know yet, it's a new addition to the stable
Bear with me on this question, guys. It's both hypothetical AND a little old-fashioned. Now, I've already said, I used fresh 50/50 distilled and antifreeze, changed every year or two. Does anybody out there ever use plain old rainwater, caught in plastic container and filtered through something (cheesecloth, a good example). Women have sworn by rainwater for washing their hair for ever. It hasn't filtered through the ground, so it's as soft as soft water can get -- to my knowledge. Plants thrive better on rainwater than tap water, as everybody who raises vegetables or flowers knows. I expect a wiseacre or two, but maybe somebody has a serious come-back for this serious question.
Nothing wrong with rain water.....about at pure as you can get..... For clothes? Yep....very soft water.....Garden? Yep....though I would be more inclined to blame the chlorine in the water for the less than steller growth... Sorry....you won't find my busting your chomps on this one....
Rain water, yes it's a known fact about it's quality. From where though? I'd think in a busy industrial town it would be acidic due to smog. I didn't read every post but what about reverse osmosis? That's clean water, right? I'd think a rain barrel in the country, somewhere well removed from too much population, might net better quality. I truely don't know for sure. A little disclaimer for the more scientific types
NOOOOOOOOO R/O water, it'll eat you alive.. unless you are using an addative..and each drop of rain is formed on a speck of dust.. wouldn't take to long to silt up your radiator passages
One thing I haven't seen in this interesting thread is any mention that a "label" does not make good water. Distilled water is made by boiling water, allowing the vapor to condense and collecting it (like making shine). But every distilling unit I ever saw had some carryover, that is solids that go over with the vapor phase and join with the condensate. So how much carryover in that bottle of distilled water? Who knows, probably less than 1% but that ain't pure H20. Made a lot of drinking water in stills in the Navy, little carryover makes it tast better. Deionization is the passing of water through ion exchange resin to remove impurities that are in the form of charged ions. Usually preceded by a carbon filter to remove organic compounds and a sand filter to remove solid materials. Used to the standard for nuc plant steam generator feedwater but was prone to issues. Resin in commercial deionization is not like the little thing your mother had to make water for her steam iron. You don't, as she did, throw it away when the indicator says it is expended. You regenerate the cation beads (ion exchange media) usually with a stong acic (like sulfuric) and the anion beads with a strong base (like sodium hydroxide). How good your ion exchange bed is depends on how well the regeneration goes and how well each of the portions of resin are rinsed before being mixed back together. Lots of nuc power plants had issues with getting good ion exchange performance. As a result a lot have gone to reverse osmosis, the passing of water through a semi-permeable membrane so that the "bad stuff" stays on one side and is flushed away and the H20 goes to the other side of the membrane. You can control the process better. This is how desalinezation plants making drinking water from sea water function. You can change water quality by the membranes you use. So my point is, a label can say anything, but if you are really hung up, I am not, you need to do some research and check out the pH and the resistivity of your radiator feed. Just some thoughts from a guy, seven years nuc sub ELT and 26 years civilian nuc power plant chemist. Oh yeah, my flathead runs DI water, anti-freeze and surfactant (water wetter). I instrumented my heads with thermocouples for a week and I was pleased to see the temps, both in traffic and at speed.
This is all I use now. No mixing and it seems to stay very clean. Prestone<SUP>®</SUP> Extended Life 50/50 Prediluted Antifreeze/Coolant features a blend of 50% antifreeze/coolant for temperature and corrosion protection and 50% demineralized water for heat transfer protection. I think they tell you not to change your antifreeze because no one wants to admit to the hazards with getting rid of it.
Those are welcome, thought (and experienced) thoughts there, guys. HUGE thanks! So, it raises yet some MORE questions RE radiator and block/head protection. Just how CLEAN is the water commercial antifreeze and "distilled" water manufacturers produce? Is it (really) as crappy as the so-called "spring" water so many makers market? Again, seriously, AND THANKS!
I should have bought more pop corn, 5 pages on radiator water! kinda like checking the ph on the spa but going swimming in the river, you guys are funny sometimes.
Rain water is naturally distilled water, pure at the point of origin. But it passes through several contaminant gases in the atmosphere and picks up dust and carbon particles. Atmospheric nitrogen and oxygen chemically combine from lightning forming nitrous and nitric acid. The acids get neutralized in most soil forming nitrates, which fertilize the soil but may be acidic if captured before hand.. Some industrial atmospheres carry "large" amounts of sulphur dioxide and ammonia. Then there is lead and mercury and most recently radio activity (no need to dye it green, huh?). After requiring all sorts of storm water filtration by developers and landowners, Florida's Environmental protection Agency was still finding polluted water downstream of these structures. Particularly heavy metals (Their limits, like Mothers Against Drunk Driving, are pretty low). After testing the rain water before it hit the streams, the source of the pollution was determined to be from rain that passed through Mexico (We always knew we couldn't drink their water. We didn't need a million dollar study for that!).
26Roadster, you're killin me! Nyaaaaa-ha-ha! And, Clik, "no need to dye it green"! Okay, okay! So, I promise NOT to use water from a heavily industrialized area or from any site that glows in the dark, already! Thanks, guys -- both for the serious answers AND for some laughs, too!
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