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Hot Rods Crate engine

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by hawkerdriver, Apr 25, 2018.

  1. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,910

    dirty old man
    Member Emeritus

    With a Zip's pump riser there is no bypass hole.
    For a pump with Zip's Auto Zone has listed a "heavy duty" pump for 6cyl. that is cast from aluminum and is equipped with a round plate on the backside of the impeller.
    Don't have my numbers for it handy, as they are at my shop. But do a search on Deuce Roadster posts and you will find it there.
     
  2. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 9,377

    krylon32
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Nebraska
    1. Central Nebraska H.A.M.B.

    I have that performance pump on the car. Plugging the by pass was I think on stock SBC pumps.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  3. XXL__
    Joined: Dec 28, 2009
    Posts: 2,115

    XXL__
    Member


    Should be AIRTEX AW895H
     
  4. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 9,377

    krylon32
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Nebraska
    1. Central Nebraska H.A.M.B.

    Just for the fun of it yesterday I drove my deuce pu which has the identical setup as the coupe save for a rebuilt 300 hp 350. After driving it 80 miles we heat gunned the 4 corners and at idle there was a 10 degree temperature variance starting at 190 which remained consistent as the temp rose at idle. I still think there's a problem with the crate motor but I can't convince the dealer. The dealer did say that if there's a problem they start the warranty at the time the motor is started so that helps. We may have to tear it down ourselves to prove to myself and the dealer that I'm right?
     
    1927graham likes this.
  5. TagMan
    Joined: Dec 12, 2002
    Posts: 6,294

    TagMan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    ^^^^ Great 'Customer Service'......NOT ! What's the Dealer's motto, "The customer is always WRONG" ??
     
  6. Pewsplace
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 2,795

    Pewsplace
    Member

    Gary, I re-read the whole story and I have never experienced that problem. (sounds like the service manager) Seriously, if the engine temperature gauge reads over 200 the problem is probably with the Zips. My friend had the Zips in his 32 and it ran 220 or better in traffic. We warrantied the engine and gave him a new one provided he didn't use the ZIP. No more heating problems! The service rep told me he had a couple of problems with the early 290 crate motors but we sold hundreds of them without a problem.
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.
  7. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,910

    dirty old man
    Member Emeritus

    My roadster has a barely streetable 355 SBC equipped with Zip's Riser, a bypass hose (no heater), a Walker radiator, the HD aluminum housing water pump mentioned earlier, and a mech 6 blade fan from Speedway, 18" IIRC.
    At Steel in Motion in Union, SC a couple years ago I waited till mid afternoon so that a lot of rubber was laid down on the strip as I had rock hard aged Coker bias ply rear tires with no bite.
    Then I ran about 6-8 runs back to back trying to find a way to get off the line without going up in smoke. The return road was lined on both sides with vendors of everything you can imagine with people giving no room for racers to get thru. You couldn't even keep the clutch engaged in first gear it was so bad.
    After I was finished with my runs, the SW temp gauge read about 190* and there was about 2 tablespoons of coolant in the catch bottle.
    So I call BS on blaming your problems on the Zip riser, Krylon32.
     
  8. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 9,377

    krylon32
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Nebraska
    1. Central Nebraska H.A.M.B.

    Dirty Old Man: Please reread all my posts as I am not blaming my problems on the Zips setup. I have one in my deuce pu that works great. PewsPlace is suggesting that the Zips may be the problem based on a previous experience. From the beginning I have thought it is a problem with the motor?
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  9. I've been thinking and thinking on some easy way to isolate the problem.
    Also thinking on ways to get the dealer ship moving.
    I'm coming up with blanks.

    Of course the first thing they see is a water pump that's foreign when a cooling issue presents. I'm more than reasonably certain that changing the pump will have no change on the hot spot issues yet changing the pump would make the fan inoperable thus rendering the car inoperable so a full test of the cooling system can not be completed. Catch 22.
    You'll need to get them to see that logically there would be more than a random hot spot if it were the pump.

    You or they could rig up a pressure guage in a heater hose for a relative comparison on the flow thru the system. But you'd then have to compare results to a stock pump and your other build with a zips working fine. If they are all pretty equal they would have no choice but to move their thoughts away from condemning the Zips set up. Once that happens they are into the engine.
     
    XXL__ likes this.
  10. XXL__
    Joined: Dec 28, 2009
    Posts: 2,115

    XXL__
    Member

    This could get ugly... and complicated... and expensive... but how about a set of -AN adapters for the block (like Jegs #50965), then remote electric water pump? That lets you keep the fan so you can repro the problem and show them it's not the Zips?

    Of course, they can still (plausibly denying warranty) point to they "non-standard" water pump setup.
     
  11. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,910

    dirty old man
    Member Emeritus

    My BS call wasn't actually directed at you, it was directed at the dealer. I have read and reread this whole thread about 3 times searching for some omission or mistake in your setup but it all appears kosher.
    Since those 290 hp engines come with heads already installed, there's the possibility that a head gasket has somehow had a hole blocked or omitted, as well as some sort of a blockage in the lock or head. No way do I believe it's the Zip's unit, as you've bled it several times, have a bypass setup thru the heater hoses, all the things to do have been done.
     
    Hnstray likes this.
  12. metlmunchr
    Joined: Jan 16, 2010
    Posts: 861

    metlmunchr
    Member

    Back in the mid 90's I had a Ford pickup with a 351M. It dropped a valve at about 70K miles and the piston drove the valve thru the combustion chamber, bent the connecting rod, and put a 2" long vertical crack thru the cylinder wall on that hole. Totally self destructed. Not wanting to spend a bunch of money, I bought a rebuilt long block from an outfit in Indiana that was clearing out an overstock of M engines for $400 shipped.

    Swapped over all the external stuff and installed the engine. Ran it a few minutes and started hearing a popping noise coming from the right side. Shut it off and the popping continued for a minute or so. Let it cool for a while and restarted. Same thing after running for a bit. Didn't have a clue other than it was obvious the head was getting hot and the sound was steam bubbles forming in the head.

    Manager of the local NAPA store had been there since the mid 60's and was like a walking encyclopedia of both parts and engine problems. So I headed over there to talk with Jim. Explained what was going on and he immediately told me the head gasket on the right side had been installed upside down. Gasket would fit either way, but one end had a full size passage and the other had about a 3/16" hole. He got a set of gaskets off the shelf and showed me the difference from one end to the other and then flipped the one gasket end over end to show how it would fit but be wrong and pretty much block that water passage.

    So I bought a set of permatorque blue gaskets and pulled the top end. Sure enough, the one gasket was wrong just like Jim predicted. Put the new gaskets on, fired it up, and everything was good. Put another 100K miles on that cheapo engine and it still ran fine when I sold the truck. Its been too long since I had a SBC apart to remember all the details, so I have no idea if this sort of assembly mistake is applicable to a SBC, or not, but I figured it was worth mentioning since the symptoms sure sound familiar.
     
    Hnstray likes this.
  13. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Rather than checking pressure, they could check the flow rate via the heater hose. Install a ball valve on the hose and keep it closed, start the engine to get the coolant flowing, hold the hose over an empty 5 gal bucket and open the valve for 30 seconds. Measure the amount of coolant in the bucket. Now remove the Zips riser and install a stock water pump and rerun the test. Compare the results. If there is no measurable difference in volumes the Zips is not the problem.
     
  14. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 9,377

    krylon32
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Nebraska
    1. Central Nebraska H.A.M.B.

    The shop that's been doing the work on my 5 window called me today and said the Chevy dealer notified him to come get the coupe because of the Zips water pump conversion they were officially washing their hands of the motor problem and we were on our own. I called the dealer and got the service guy instead of the owner and he told me that if we put a stock style water pump on the motor and still had the heating problem with the right rear that we could get with the GM Power Train Control Center and present our problem for resolution? He thought we stood a good chance of them either authorizing a tear down or motor replacement? I'll still bet I end up buying a new motor and footing the whole bill! Ain't life a bitch?
     
    1927graham likes this.
  15. Dick Stevens
    Joined: Aug 7, 2012
    Posts: 3,708

    Dick Stevens
    Member

    I would be putting a stock style water pump on it with an electric fan and get on them about the heating problem!
     
  16. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 9,377

    krylon32
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Nebraska
    1. Central Nebraska H.A.M.B.

    That's the plan.
     
  17. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Do the flow rate test I outlined above to add to your evidence that it wasn't the Zips riser.
     
  18. big duece
    Joined: Jul 28, 2008
    Posts: 6,826

    big duece
    Member
    from kansas

    Looks like there is no water pump given when you buy the long block. So, whatever pump you decide to use, if its napa rebuilt, aftermarket moroso alum or whatever(zips) they are leaving a loophole for them to say, "you used THAT pump, were not touching it. Sounds like a head gasket or cracked head. 12499529.jpg
     
  19. IN the big scheme of things here,,, how long would it take to chalk out the hot spots and it actually take you to swap the heads left to right ? 4hrs?
    What's the down side to that? voided warranty that nobody is honoring anyway?

    The up side lies is the possibilities of diagnosis ,,,
    The problem is evident and obvious when you pull the heads and you fix it.
    The problem follows the head and you now know where the problem lies.
    The problem stays and you know it's in the block.
    You can fish into the coolant passages too and see what you catch


    Take pics & document the process, including the dealer shenanigans and warranty being problematic and exclusive instead of protective. That will fully explain why you had to do this. Then Go to the warranty division with the findings and documents you've created.
    All of that for 4 hrs of working on your hotrod.

    Or jump thru their hoops and dance to their tune, it's up to you and you're in control of you hotrod.


    Here's how it's supposed to go,,
    We installed a pretty hot "blueprint engine". The guy has a problem a year later but just 500 miles. It got towed in, I called them, gave them the serial numbers. They guy hadn't turned in the warranty card either. Duhh! They said diagnose the issue and call them back with the claim number they just generated. It was a minor issue but it busted the bottom of the rocker. The said they would send 1 out that day. I said WAIT a min here,,,, why did it break?? The good logic I used got a full set of upgraded rocker and new pushrods. They sent the parts out & 3 days later I called them with the bill, the tow and 3 days later I had the check. Easy peasy and everyone happy. That was "Blueprint Engines" purchased thru summit racing and not GM.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
    Blues4U likes this.
  20. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 9,377

    krylon32
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Nebraska
    1. Central Nebraska H.A.M.B.

    I truly appreciate all the suggestions but they're easier said than done. I'm 73 years old and 7 weeks into a 3 to 6 month recovery for a total left shoulder replacement so I have to hire all the work done. Getting it into the shops schedule that I trust takes time. He's bent over backwards to help me so I can't push him to much. He and I want to remedy this but it'll take time. Thanks again for all the suggestions.
     
  21. Hombre
    Joined: Aug 22, 2008
    Posts: 1,075

    Hombre
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Krylon32, I notice that you are an Alliance Vendor. What is your product or service?

    After reading your last post about your Crate Motor problem I can say I certainly am sympathetic to your problems. I would say I feel your pain but I am not in that condition so I won't say that. I also am 73 and have to deal with those old man problems way to often so in that way I guess I do feel your pain.

    I would like to help with this problem you are having but just don't know how to do that. If you were closer I would just come over and do the work that some have suggested right here on the HAMB and get that damn deuce up and running and that would be that.

    I also look at this from the prospective that you are 73 years old, and like myself your glass is no longer half full the damn thing is half empty. It would grieve me greatly not to have my old Hot Rod to get in every day and do something. I am just sure that the loss of that pleasure would shorten my life to some degree ( tongue in cheek). So how can I help you help yourself? HUMMMMMMM

    I have given this quite a bit of thought and have come up with one way to get this done. I have a very good 327 engine setting in my shop. I will give you that engine for free, it has been setting for a few years and needs to al least be freshened up. So I will, as soon as you agree to this, tear it down get it to the machine shop and have it checked, I will let them decide if it needs any major work ( I am sure it doesn't but lets check anyway) I then will screw that rascal back together with what ever new parts it needs, and run it on my test stand break in the cam set the timing and dial in the carb.

    I will furnish all the labor and running around to get this done. You sir can pay for any parts and machine work that may be needed. I will then drive it up to you in Nebraska, and with the help of a couple of these HAMB guys who are going to read this post and want in on this deal, install the engine into your Duece and get your ASS back on the road.

    How's, that sound?
     
  22. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 9,377

    krylon32
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Nebraska
    1. Central Nebraska H.A.M.B.

    Thanks for your offer but this will all be handled by the end of next week one way or another. Mike at Snyder Street Rods is picking up the car tomorrow and the water pump swap will happen next week as I have everything to do the swap. We will then make a determination if we still have the hot spot and document everything. Then we will begin the process with GM. My local Chevy dealer also deals with crate motors and since my wife or myself buy a new car or truck there every year he is doing what he can to help. This deal will be resolved soon as I have been screwing with it for several weeks. If GM will do nothing I will just do a new engine and be done with it. I was planning on driving the car to the LARS. Again thanks for all your suggestions and offers. Hombre, for the last almost 40 years I have had shop called Cornhusker Rod And Custom which specialized in 28-48 Ford chassis. I also sell the T5 to Flathead trans kit along with discounts on major hot rod parts. For the last several years I have farmed out some of the work on my cars I am no longer able to do and that's how we got to where we are now. I hope this helps explain my situation and who I am?
     
    31Vicky with a hemi and pat59 like this.
  23. younglove
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 146

    younglove
    Member
    from MT

    Hello, I'm with Sheep Dip regarding Pace Performance. Copy and paste this into their search screen...
    GMP-TH350350HO-1F
    A friend put this combo into his clean driver '69 Nova and loves it over 30,000 miles later. Scroll around and you'll see over 400hp if ya want for $9k but he wanted decent mileage w/o ever messing w/ a carb!
    Best wishes in your choices
     
  24. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Hombre, that is a helluva offer you made! That is just the kind of thing that makes this forum kick so much ass! Good on you man, good on you.
     
  25. Hombre, Dam man you are the top of the top on the cream pie. Great offer to someone you don't even know. Gary is one of the best of the best guys around in this hot rod world of ours. I think he just got a bad motor and that is that. He has went every route you can go with it and still no improvement. I know I wish I was good at building motors and could help him out, but I am in the same boat as Gary. I have most of my work done by some one that knows what they are doing. At 78 I am to dam old to start learning how to rebuild a motor. I have built a few back in the old days, but things are so much different now with the cams & everything else. I will pass on it.
    Wishing Gary the best of luck getting to the bottom of this problem, and I know he will not give up until his deuce is up and running strong.
     
  26. Shamus
    Joined: Jul 20, 2005
    Posts: 1,247

    Shamus
    Member
    from NC

    For HOMBRE: "Krylon32, I notice that you are an Alliance Vendor. What is your product or service?"

    I have one of KRYLON 32s chassis under my avatar with his T5 adapter & a mild '51 Merc flathead. Nothing better.
    Unfortunately, like Gary I'm getting old (76) & after 25 years of jumping out of perfectly good airplanes, my body has been slowly paying the price,i.e.; both knee replacements, 2 shoulder surgeries (same shoulder - other too far gone), a hip replacement w/a repair, carpel tunnel w/arthritis & the other in the fall, not too mention I won't let them touch my back while I'm able to walk not to mention cataracts & "crystalense".
    I haven't built an engine in 20 years, but thanks to my late wife's frugality & raising our 3 children to be independent & self supporting I was able to buy one of those 350/290 sbc from summit for a Outlaw '34 coupe a few years back & more recently "connect & cruise" to replace a 502/502 bbc in my OT convertible. After a lot of asking & looking, I found a competent shop to build my roadster my way & as mentioned above, was able to pay the bi-monthly invoices to have it completed in 9 months. I've had a lot of fun & enjoyment driving it the past 4 years (grand kids love it), but have placed it for sale (HAMB classified) rather than let it sit. Shifting & clutching is not as much fun on this old, broken body.

    Crate motors save a lot of time & money (some times)
     

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  27. big duece
    Joined: Jul 28, 2008
    Posts: 6,826

    big duece
    Member
    from kansas

    Fantastic roadster
     
  28. corndog
    Joined: Nov 27, 2007
    Posts: 4,700

    corndog
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Indiana

    I have a fresh '67 small journal 327 that I want to sell. The 327 has always been my favorite engine and I built this one for my last hot rod project that never occurred. I have a complete "build sheet" on the engine and can answer any questions about it. I assembled the engine and chose the parts but did not do any of the machine work. All that was done by a local shop I have been using for 25 years. I even have some pictures of it during assembly as I had a feeling that I might never use the engine when I was building it.
    It is bored .030 and has Speed Pro forged flat-top pistons. It has a stock steel crank at .010 .010, stock re-con'd rods with ARP rod bolts, bottom end was balanced. It has the Corvette 350 HP hydraulic cam, Cloyes double roller timing set, fresh heads with new guides, stainless valves, screw studs and guide plates. New ARP head bolts. It has an Edelbrock 3CBX intake and Edelbrock carb, Corvette LT-1 valve covers, new HEI distributor, stock center dump exhaust manifolds. It has a new Mellings HV oil pump and a Corvette "trap-door" oil pan Price is $3000.
     

    Attached Files:

    olscrounger likes this.
  29. Man, that's a helluva generous offer you made. It's nice to see that there are still kind and decent folks out there. You are definitely one of them. I'd like to buy you a virtual beer at the virtual HAMB bar.
     
  30. There are a lot of pre-built or so-called 'crate' engine options - with different component types, costs, horsepower levels, etc.. I recently looked into some higher end 383 stroker crate motors and decided that for me to get the quality of components that I wanted, that I really needed to build it myself. Part of the issue is that my goal is to have a very streetable 500+ HP - and be built with higher-end components with correct/known clearances, etc.. So I've done what I've always done - bought/acquired the right parts and designed the "package" from the bottom up. In the end, I'll have about $7000 in it (which is not cheap) - and that is with me doing the assembly and detail work. But - it has Manley Pro-Series billet rods, Manley forged crank, Wiseco pistons, AFR 195 heads, Chris Straub custom hydraulic roller cam, road-race pan, crank scraper, MSD ignition, Quickfuel carb, etc.. I'm doing all the assembly and detail work and Fowler Engines does all my machine work. I happen to enjoy the whole process and want this to be the best SBC I can build in that cubic inch range (stock 350 4 bolt block). There is just no easy way to have exactly what I want . . . other than doing it this way - or paying a custom engine builder to deliver a turn-key engine. Also, I'll know every part number and every detail in the entire build . . . should be a fun engine in my 32 3 winder.
     
    Finn Jensen likes this.

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