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Hot Rods Cowl Steering . . . just stop !

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Pete Eastwood, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. rgdavid
    Joined: Feb 3, 2014
    Posts: 347

    rgdavid
    Member

    What a great thread,
    Im learning loads and questioning what i knew,
    Please dont let this go,
    Thanks Pete and others,
     
    zzford likes this.
  2. bowie
    Joined: Jul 27, 2011
    Posts: 2,726

    bowie
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Pwood: thank you for your insight. I have never been inclined to use cowl steering, but having a little knowledge of it ; is good. Hope you will approach and define more suspension issues, going forward.
     
  3. Vonn Ditch
    Joined: Aug 8, 2013
    Posts: 105

    Vonn Ditch
    Member
    from LA

  4. Schwanke Engines
    Joined: Jun 12, 2014
    Posts: 784

    Schwanke Engines
    Member

    I mean in reality every traditionally built car basically has very unsafe Tendencies be it Bias Ply tires, Straight Axle front suspension, long un-tethered steering arms, no seat belts, no Roof, wooden floor's, no bumpers, no fenders, drum brakes, 80 year old parts. These things are really all a death trap on wheels, they were never intended to drive cross country at 80+mph continuous speeds. I don't care if your the best builder in the world, your starting with a very dangerous base and rule/ guidelines that don't help this.

    But I think that this is the main reason So many of us love this old junk, it's unsafe, cool looking, and a bit sketchy. But just feels so right, even if it's so wrong. I appreciate everyone's input, not arguing one way or the other, I love cowl steering looks, but love that the Vega box setup is Soo cheap and easy to do as well. I'm torn with my build now. But appreciate the challenge.

    Sent from my XT1585 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  5. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,162

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Stogy likes this.
  6. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 20,652

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    @Vonn Ditch's 3d animation came from here I assume (see link below) so your approval and Pete's may be absolutely warranted and I'd like to know as this may very well make what was being discussed easier to understand.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_steer
     
    mad mikey likes this.
  7. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 3,705

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    That animation also can give insight as to why splitting wishbones is not an optimal idea, since it will induce a twisty torque into the axle between the bat wings. Four-links are a better choice to eliminate this problem and bump steer alike, as is an "I" beam axle instead of a tubular one. Sorry for veering O/T - journalistic bump steer got to me.
     
    ratrodrodder, stik70, zzford and 2 others like this.
  8. It's a great animation.
    Over exaggerated to clearly show the issues.
    What's missing is the split bones or hairpins (and the torsion bar/anti roll effects of them)
    Much less suspension travel more similar to a buggy sprig hot rod and not a high articulated rock crawler
     
    Stogy and mad mikey like this.
  9. JOECOOL
    Joined: Jan 13, 2004
    Posts: 2,760

    JOECOOL
    Member

    I was always under the impression if your drag link and wishbone were parallel that that would work fine . Thanks for 'spaining it to this old guy.
     
  10. Andy
    Joined: Nov 17, 2002
    Posts: 4,770

    Andy
    Member

    I think I saw a car with fake cowl steering. It was a standard cross steer set up with a useless link to a fake pitman arm in the cowl.
     
    Doctorterry, Hnstray and Blues4U like this.
  11. Pete Eastwood
    Joined: Jul 27, 2011
    Posts: 1,027

    Pete Eastwood
    Member
    from california

    Last night stuff here got a little ridiculous,
    but I see this morning it got deleted.
    Just the same . . . . I'm done
     
    willysguy, loudbang and Blues4U like this.
  12. 34Phil
    Joined: Sep 12, 2016
    Posts: 308

    34Phil

    Jeeps to '66 did both. Traditional steering ran to a bell crank that gave side steering. Parallel leaves would change wheelbase so this eliminated suspension bump steer. Only problem was they mounted bellcrank to axle which rotated under acceleration and braking causing bumpsteer. [​IMG]
     
    ls1yj likes this.
  13. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 5,774

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    All the same, thanks for starting this thread and taking the time to share the information. Most of us appreciate it very much. I love that this board has folks such as yourself willing to share their knowledge and experience. Please don't let the bad form of some keep you from sharing more, that would be a shame.
     
    Montana1, RMR&C, Hnstray and 4 others like this.
  14. Andy
    Joined: Nov 17, 2002
    Posts: 4,770

    Andy
    Member

    Pete, Thank you for this thread.
    It is wonderful to have you explain the problem.
     
    Hnstray, Stogy, willysguy and 3 others like this.
  15. That's too bad a few ruin it for the many.
    I missed most of ridiculous and glad I did.
    Thanks for sharing Pete.
     
    Hnstray, j hansen and loudbang like this.
  16. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 37,613

    loudbang
    Member

    You tried educating some people but some don't want to learn. You did what you could.
     
    Montana1, RMR&C, Hnstray and 3 others like this.
  17. willysguy
    Joined: Oct 2, 2007
    Posts: 1,215

    willysguy
    Member
    from Canada

    Thanks Pete, some of us on here recognize your contribution to the sport/hobby and realize you know what you're talking about.
     
  18. Mr. Eastwood, thank you for the lesson,info, and your time. Some of us really do appreciate it, and I am one of those people. Thank you Sir.
     
    Montana1, loudbang and Stogy like this.
  19. 26hotrod
    Joined: Nov 28, 2009
    Posts: 961

    26hotrod
    Member
    from landis n c

    Pete I'v never given an Aplus to a professor before, but you deserve one today! Thanks for the lesson............
     
    Montana1, pprather and loudbang like this.
  20. 48stude
    Joined: Jul 31, 2004
    Posts: 1,192

    48stude
    Member

    DITTO! DITTO! DITTO ! I knew who P-Wood was from the get go and his contributions that have had a positive affect on the hobby. I appreciate him taking the time to try to guide us uneducated types. Thank You Pete!
     
    loudbang and mad mikey like this.
  21. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 28,249

    The37Kid
    Member

    Thanks Pete, it was educational while it lasted. Maybe it was best I couldn't find a photo of Jimmy Frankland's Stagger Valve Fronty, one of the first Pre WWII forur bar cars. Bob
     
    loudbang and Stogy like this.
  22. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,311

    anthony myrick
    Member

    ls1yj and Hnstray like this.
  23. JROTTEN
    Joined: Jul 4, 2010
    Posts: 80

    JROTTEN
    Member

    This is the best response so far. That's why I call this forum "the forum of miss-information", because when someone is willing to help, the "know it all's" don't listen.
     
  24. Thanks for the Geometry lesson Pwood! I learned a lot.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  25. walls
    Joined: Oct 6, 2005
    Posts: 542

    walls
    Member

    The internet has a way of speeding up the nature of people to the pathological.
    Burning witches is nothing new.

    I like learning things, thanks for the effort.
     
    mad mikey, loudbang and Hnstray like this.
  26. Well I guess we're left with those informative threads like "Show us your bumper bolts" or "What color should I paint my sun visor?".
    At least you tried Pete, thanks for that.

    Mick
     
    brEad, Rafae Block, cretin and 12 others like this.
  27. Pete E,
    Thank you for the educational lesson. I don't understand all of it yet.But I will go back over it again until I do.
     
    MercDeuceMan and loudbang like this.
  28. 270bob
    Joined: Mar 26, 2014
    Posts: 66

    270bob

    Cowl Steering ... Just Stop! Thanks again Pete, maybe you can do some other topics of interest? i.e. Suicide front end ... Just Stop! or Overly chopped cars ... Just Stop!
     
  29. 40ford
    Joined: Mar 2, 2006
    Posts: 45

    40ford
    Member
    from Duluth, GA

    Sounds like my surveying professor in college. When we came in dead on it with a survey he would say "you're not that good, compensating errors. - 5 points."
     
  30. HotRodWorks
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 336

    HotRodWorks
    Alliance Vendor

    Sorry for the poor video quality, but I believe this is the point @Pete Eastwood was trying to make. The part in blue is the radius rod, connected to an axle, connected to the round spindle back. I've roughly scaled it from a black roadster shown in this thread. The drag link appears to attach to a raised steering arm. The total movement is 2.5" up and 2.5" down. There is a noticeable movement in the pitman arm.

    Unless the point where the drag link attaches to the pitman arm is directly over the point where the radius rod attaches to the frame, there will be some degree of bump steer. The amount of bump steer is dependant upon the specific geometry of the components in a given car. It's not a matter of either 100% bump steer or 0% bump steer. There will be some. It's a sliding scale of severity according to the individual component placement away from the ideal.

    Other factors in the suspension can mask the issue, but only those attachment points will change the geometry.

     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018

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