Technical Chevy stovebolt six, big bolt as well as small, calling all

There is a lot of threads on these wonderful mills! They took each other place and went in to alot of things.

But I think it would be nice to put them in the same thread.
There is a good thread on here about hopping up a 235. but first some og the tings of idde'ing a strovebolt six shooter.

There is the Captain bars that are a give away, acording to the langdon six site.
But im a Little in the dark about the Thriftmaster, jobmaster and the big bolts?
Is a thriftmaster an exclusive truck mill? Is it a big bolt a big rig motor, like 2 tons plus? and does that only refers to cam, carb and ignition set up, or are the different?

How long is a 181, a 235 and a 292?
When did they swap bellhousing?
Is and 235 bell housing for truck or car? will they swap?


Bring all the stuff you got! Please.

The ultimate six shooter tech tread!

 

the early 235s (splash oilers) had the full "216" side cover and "2 bolt" valve cover.

 

Found this on the www;


I'm not at home, so I can't post pictures (blocked by my work firewall), but I have provided EXTENSIVE info and pictures in the past. So I'll just do a short version of what will and what will not interchange.
First, ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Chevy V8 bell housings, beginning with the 55 model, and ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL 6cyl bell housings, BEGINNING WITH THE 63 MODEL, have the same bolt pattern ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BELL HOUSING (that is, engine side and tranny side).
Also, ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL 55-later V8 flywheels (up through 85 for SB and 90 for BB) and 63-later 6cyl flywheels are 100% interchangeable---------- ---------- sort of. These above mentioned flywheels have the same bolt patterns and physically bolt onto any crankshaft, BUT, beginning in 63, there were TWO sizes of flywheels. The 55-later V8s all had the large, 14in diameter, 168 teeth flywheels and MOST of them had a bolt pattern for only the 10in clutch (later and truck flywheels had a bolt pattern for the 11in clutch). In 63, the smaller, 153 teeth flywheel was introduced which required a different (smaller) bell housing, AND, a different starter. Also, in 63, bell housings changed from the open bottom to the full enclosure style. Up through 62, all V8 bell housings were cast iron (55-57 housings had provision for motor mounts), EXCEPT the housings for hi-perf 348 and 409 engines and 60-62 Vette engines, those were open bottom alum---------------- translate expensive today! One exception, the 63 409 still got the open bottom alum housing.

The tranny bolt pattern for ALLLLLLLLLLLLL Chevy manual trannys is the same, 3sp, 4sp, and truck trannys. Ooooooops, now we have another can of worms. The larger truck trannys used a larger front bearing retainer, thus, the hole in the truck bell housings is larger (remember, this is big trucks, NOT pickups).

If for examplw, a person has a 55 Chevy with a healthy big V8, and prefers to use a bigger clutch (such as an 11in clutch), simply round up a later model 168 teeth flywheel (70s-80s), bolt it up to the engine in the 55 with an 11in clutch, use the STOCK style 55-57 bell housing and all the stock 55 clutch linkage and throwout bearing fork, and drive it away.

Tranny type DOES NOT determine the style of drive shaft yoke! Up through 1962, the tail shaft of all trannys had the coarse splines (16 splines). In 63, tranny tail shafts changed to the finer, 27 splines. Thus, year model, and not tranny type, determines which yoke is required. Ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, I know, someone is going to jump in here and make a comment about something like a Muncie 4sp never had the coarse spline tail shaft. Right! Why? BECAUSE Muncies were not introduced until 63!!!!!!!!!!!

And last, as already mentioned, the 235 6cyl bell housings are different from the V8 housings and WILL NOT interchange. This of course includes ANY 62-earlier 6cyl (216-235-261) bell housing and flywheel. They are TOTALLY different from the 55-later V8 bell housings/flywheels.

One VERY IMPORTANT detail about 55-85 V8 flywheels. Even though they are ALL physically interchangeable between ANY V8 Chevy crankshaft, the SB400 and 454BB engines required a flywheel (ALL were the larger 168 teeth versions) that was UNbalanced (or externally balanced, whichever term you prefer). These flywheels (and flexplates for auto trannys) had an additional weight on one side of the flywheel to provide weight for engine balancing. If you put one of these UNbalanced flywheels on a NEUTRAL balance engine, such as a 283-350, it will literally vibrate so bad that it will destroy the engine REAL QUICK


If anybody can agree to this give it a like.

 

Belhousing for second generation stovebolt.

Truck

 

Belhousing second generation car (most likely '55 car)

And car with pick up adapter.

 

Not true, any truck including 1/2 ton using the Muncie 465 4 speed from 68 on up have the larger center hole in the bellhousing..

 

Thank you!

 

OK, as best as I can do, here is a fairly complete rundown on OPEN BOTTOM STYLE BELL HOUSINGS. These were BASICALLY in use 55-70 (63-70 for trucks).

Here are several side-by-side comparrisons between a truck and a 55-7 style housing. The truck housing is the rust colored housing. You can IMMEDIATELY see the difference between the motor mount pads/angles on each. The 55-7 housing has TWO threaded holes, the truck housing has ONE threaded hole and one pointed pin.
Notice the difference in the opening between the truck and 55-7 housings for the throwout bearing fork.
The 55-56-57 bell housings are physically 100% interchangeable. THERE ARE SOME VARIATIONS AND I WILL COVER THOSE VARIATIONS.















Here is the sheet metal cover/pan that fits all open bottom housings.


This is a 55-56 specific housing, NOTICE the ball stud, IT IS INSTALLED/REMOVED FROM INSIDE THE HOUSING.




This is a 57 specific housing, NOTICE the ball stud. IT IS INSTALLED/REMOVED FROM OUTSIDE. This style ball stud was used for all remaining years and the ball stud is still (or at least was) available from Chevy parts depts. The 55-6 ball stud is long gone!





This is a 55-6 housing, NOTICE the three holes for mounting the starter-------ALL THREE ARE THREADED-----------the bolts all attach the starter from the front. If a person wanted to use the 57-later type starter on a 55-56 housing, simply drill out the threads on the upper hole.


This is a 57-70 style housing, NOTICE the starter mounting holes--------------ONLY THE TOP HOLE IS NOT THREADED. The top bolt goes in from the bell housing side and screws into the starter nose of 57-70 style starters.


Here is a comparrison between the 55-7 style open bottom housing and the 58-62 open bottom. NOTICE the 58-62 style housing is "plain" (no provision for motor mounts). The one shown here is the 60-62 Aluminum housing used on hi-perf 348 and 409 engines, but BOTH the alum and iron versions are the same.




And while we're on the subject, let's just look at the flywheels.
Here is the (63-85)small, 153 teeth and the (55-85)big, 168 teeth flywheels . BOTH have the same bolt pattern and will physically bolt up to ANY 55-85 SB and ANY BB up to 90 crankshaft.


BOTH of these are the big, 168 teeth flywheels, BUT, the one on the right with the added weight is the style REQUIRED for SB400s and the 454BB.


Here are small and big flexplates. The big one has the added weight welded to it for a SB400/454.


In 63, when the small flywheel was added, there was a small bell housing to be used with it also. The housings became full enclosure in 63 (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE OPEN BOTTOM ALUM FOR 63 409s).


This is a rare, and PRICY, full enclosure housing. It is for 64-65 ONLY with the big flywheel (409, 396, etc).




Except for the later, full enclosure truck housings (whole new ball game), I've tried to cover the car housing differences, as well as show how to identify the early truck housing when passed off by unscrupulous people as a 55-57 housing.

 

Also,in the 80's GM offered the A833 4 speed overdrive in light trucks. Some had a Mopar bolt pattern and modified GM bell housing. Others had a regular GM tranny bolt pattern and fit typical SBC bell housings. In both cases the bell housing has the larger center hole.

 

Good site for ID/no.
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/models/engine.htm

Is the gearbox our of a early 70 c50, different then any other SM465? Did all big bolts have a p-brake on the Trans?
Will sm420 swap staight out with a sm465? Do they share the same bell?

Is a blue flame a corvette only?

 

Calling out to the guys who knows.
@squirrel (top photo ID guy)
Butch @56sedandelivery
@Robert j palmer (building a 235 In to an a-boner)
@HOTRODPRIMER
@porknbeaner
@THE235KID

They know a lot, maybe they can help.

 

From experience, There are two and four wheel drive versions that differ in tail housing length and style. A C70 would have a 5 speed standard but they all the 465's have the same front bolt pattern and retainer from what I've seen. The 420 has a traditional GM 4-5/8 front bearing retainer, 465 is 5-1/8.

 

Very briefly, Chevrolet featured six cylinder engines from 1929.

It had a major redesign in 1937, and this engine continued with modifications until 1962.

This was a 216 cu in engine.

In 1941 they added a 235 cu in version for trucks

In 1950 they started offering the 235 in Powerglide equipped cars

In 1954 they came out with a 261 cu in version of the 235, for trucks

In 1955 Pontiac of Canada started using the 261. This was because Pontiac went to all V8s in the US, but they wanted a six cylinder car for the (less rich) Canadian market. So they borrowed the big version of the Chev six.

In 1955 Chev came out with their first V8, but continued to offer the 235 cu in six for the economy minded until 1962.

In 1963 they introduced a totally new six cylinder engine that used a lot of V8 parts. It was made in 196, 230, 250 and 292 cu in versions. The 292 was a long stroke truck engine, never offered in cars. It has a considerably taller block than the others, at least 1".

The GMC truck straight six from the forties and fifties, is a totally different design. It has nothing in common with the Chev six.

 

The first ones where the 181 and 194. Both dipper motors, known as the cast iron wonders.

The next version was the 216 and was a dipper motor to, and got a bigger brother later, the 235, also a dipper.

In 53/54 came the upgrated 235, becoming a full presurrized motor. But mostly for power glide cars.


The 261 and 292 was all pressurized. And was popular for racing.


any clues to the length?


The 292 has the motomounts staggered, all the others has them straight a cross.


Fenton split manifolds was very popular, as a part of the upgrading of them for street, track and or salt/dessert. Any body car to tell more about them?

Most the intakes for sale today is ment to have the heat riser connected to work probably when cold. How does that work out with Fenton?


There is also the Wayne port heads that is rare but makes good power. They fit 216 and 235. But they got dedicated threads of there own, but a link wouldn't hurt.

 

There was this thread by about "best bang for the buck" and "best SBC alternative". And I was sad to see how few used or talked about the Stovebolt six shooter, the are damn fine mashing, they served I WW2, the moved everything from dirt, corn, eggs and china for decades, the raced on track, in dirt and in the water.
If the SBC is the mouse they are the mule, that could.

They are possible to tune well, parts are widely available and they are not that hard on the wallet!
Cost more then a SBC, cost less then the flathead to build.
But that can be set for most any mill around.

Please keep adding, maybe we can get less "what chevy six is this", and more "look what I did"-threads.

 

You forgot the 207 used in 34,35, and 36

 

This is stolen from another thread, but there is some good info, but I would like to hear from the other buy too, them who build em and raced them.
What is the best blocks, I know there will be a lot claiming that a 302 Jimmy is the only good six shooter. But there have been other around there could hold there own.

And @Marty Strode and pat ganahl is making a Spaulding brother build/replica, too featuring a straight six. And I'm looking very much forward to the build up of the mill!

There is also the T33 that ran at Colorado hot rod hill climb. It featured a Wayne head in a 33 truck frame doing very good too.

 

Yes, was they any good? Dipper too? Any aftermarked parts and fast goodies.

And this thread is lacking photos, a lot!

 

http://www.hotsixes.com/chevy-inline-6/

Good info here too

 

just like the 216s, dipper, babbet bearings. I've never seen any aftermarket items for 207s. 216s and 235s were the most popular and around the longest.

 

The third generation chevy six has 7 main bearings, Twice as many as the earlier versions. Nuff said

 

A lot of guys unknowingly, or maybe even knowingly (crooks-seen it), try to pass a cast iron truck bellhousing off as a Tri-Five V-8 car bellhousing. Just at a glance, note the "flat" on the rear bottom of the Tri-Five passenger car bellhousing, and the "curved/angled" bottom of the truck; makes it easy to I.D. them without even getting near them (or the seller trying to pass one off). With the 55-56 V-8 passenger car bellhousing starter mounts, the top threaded hole is for a stud; I stud ALL of mine, as it's just easier to start a nut than it is to thread a bolt into a hole when there's little room and hot exhaust in the way. Although the 400 SBC and 454 BBC BOTH take a weighted flywheel/flexplate for external balance engine purposes, they are different weights and position, and can't be interchanged. That I know from first hand experience with a SBC stroker motor, "balanced" rotating assembly I bought 25 years ago from California Discount Warehouse. I think they only really did a "targeted weight" type of balance job, and then put a 454 flexplate in the box accidentally. After assembly, the engine would idle fine, but give it gas, and it felt like someone had ahold of the rear bumper of the truck, and just a "dullness" to it. I stumbled on an article in a magazine about Chevrolet flywheels/flexplates, and realized I had a 454 flexplate. Installed a 400 flexplate, and it's been fine ever since. The stroker kit had sat on a shelf in my garage for a few years before I got around to using it, and the warranty was history. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.

 

Doing a flywheel/clutch/starter ('56 235)this weekend in my dd/only vehicle '49 Chevy 1/2 ton. Hard work. I've been able to just open the driver's side door to use my engine lift to draw out the transmission. I have a '69 3sp+od Saginaw/Borg-Warner. I just used three fan belts of different lengths around the transmission and then hooked them onto the hook on the lift, works like a charm. The engine lift is fully extended.

I have a '62 261 that I'm going to put in one of these days but I decided to 'go for it', I'm only 5k miles from turning over 100,000 miles all on this engine! I want to see it roll over! Oh, I had 18 years on the same 6V starter, I've been pushing 12V through it for about 16 years!




Good thread. I will follow this one.

 

Thank you @Cosmo49. Don't take this the wrong way, but if you work with parts all day, do you stock old manuals and parts lists? That might be invaluable help!!

I would like this to be a "one stop to shop" deal, sort to speak. So we get fewer what is this stovebolt.
It would be great if people could go true this thread and call out a stovebolt, even if it'd a 235 truck, car or pressured 235.

There is also something about the heads, right?

They have a different look between the plugs when being pressurized, apposed to dipper motors?

 

From another page:

they will obstruct our frame brackets. Once engine mounts are attached lower engine into position, bolt down the transmission rear mount. Then locate the frame brackets. Drill frame holes at this time and bolt in place. The Stovebolt Engine Company motor mount kit is also of value when installing a Stovebolt automatic transmission adapter behind a 235-261 because it shortens the spread to the tail shaft of the transmission.

216 to 235 Engine SwapBy Barry Weeks

In this article, The Stovebolt Page good friend Barry Weeks explains how to have the best of both worlds. Reprinted from the Oct/Nov '93 "This Old Truck" with permission.

I have been running a '57 Chevy 235 in one of my '40 Chevy trucks for over four years now and am in the process of putting together another '40 half-ton chassis with a '62 235 in it. The 1955-62 235 sixes make very good replacements for the old 216's. If you are concerned with drivability more than originality (*see note at end), the 235's have a lot to recommend them. They have insert bearings and full pressure oiling, which allow for higher RPM's than a 216, and 1955 to 1962 235's can be found in running condition in my area for $100-$200. Most can be bought very complete from car owners who have replaced their sixes with V-8s.

I thought the tricks involved in installing a 235 in place of a 216 were fairly common information, but I receive a lot of questions about my conversions. Chevy sixes seem to be getting more popular, so I thought I should share some of what I've learned so far, since it applies to '37 and newer Chevy trucks.

The 235 will bolt right up to the older bellhousing. This would be a good time to replace the rear motor mounts on the bell- housing, if necessary. The front mount should bolt right up if your 235 was originally front mounted. If it is the later, sidemounted version, you may have to drill two holes in your front mount plate and maybe even reinforce it like the 216 mount plate. If you have the camshaft out, you can also bolt the 216 plate onto the 235 motor. Use new rubber in the front mount, as it is cheap to buy.

The 235 flywheel is slightly larger and has more teeth than the 216 flywheel. It also uses a larger clutch. The easiest thing to do here is to use the flywheel, clutch, and starter from your 216. There are a few different 216 flywheels, with different size crankshaft bolts and a slightly different center hole diameter. My 1940 flywheels bolted right onto my 235's. If the teeth are worn on your flywheel, evenly heat the ring gear with a torch to expand it, then remove it. Then grind a small chamfer on the inside edge of the diameter that will fit against the step on the flywheel. Replace the gear by heating to expand and letting it air cool to a tight shrink fit.

The 235's have longer water pumps than the 216's. It may be possible to move your radiator ahead, or you can buy a shortened water pump with matching pulley. Being the cheapskate I am, I shortened my own water pumps by pressing the hub down the shaft farther and cutting off the extra length of shaft. You will need a shorter water pump pulley to calculate how much to shorten the pump. I found the correct pulley on junkyard motors which I think were '53 or '54 235's. This shorter pulley is only abut 2 1/4" long and uses the narrow fan belt. It also has a different bolt pattern from your old 216 pulley. Use a straight edge to check for proper pulley alignment when shortening the pump.

Your 216 thermostat housing will bolt onto the 235. This will allow you to use your original upper radiator hose. For a lower radiator hose, you will need to locate one having the correct bends and a different diameter on each end. These hoses, along with the previously mentioned shorter water pump and pulley, can be purchased from suppliers such as Jim Carter Truck Parts or Chevy's of the '40's. I was in a hurry, so I bent a piece of wire into a pattern and found a hose at my local parts store that I could cut down to fit my pattern. The exhaust, fuel line, throttle linkage, wiring, gauges, and choke cable shouldn't give any problems that aren't easily solved.

I've driven my 235-powered 1940 half-ton pick-up from Minnesota, across Wisconsin to the Iola swap meet. In a distance of over 500 miles, I averaged 22 miles/gallon at a steady 55 miles per hour. Not bad, considering I still have the stock 4:11 rear-end, and am running two Rochester carbs on a Fenton intake manifold. I am also running Fenton headers with dual exhaust. This motor makes more power than I thought it would. I rarely need to downshift, as it will pull most any hill in high gear. In my case at least, a '55- '62 Chev 235 has worked out great!

Do any other members have information and/or experiences to add to this? If so please write to me:

Barry Weeks
Weeks-End Garage
3647 Lake Elmo Ave. N
Lake Elmo, MN 55042

* Note on Originality:

There are parts suppliers who now sell rocker arm covers, shortened water pumps and pushrod covers to make a 235 virtually indistinguishable from a real 216. Most of the parts vendors also have swap kits to allow you to complete this entire procedure without having to fabricate anything yourself.


If anybody on here has the any hop up advice for six shooter, please post!

A 250 or Third Gen six is 32.5 inches long according to Wikipedia.

 

I found this too.

 

Cool article. Of course once the 265 made it's debut, that was it for the 6, as far as performance mods go.

 

I can help with the thriftmaster a little bit.

Not just a big bolt motor, you could get it in everything from a station wagon to a big truck. I am not sure but maybe even in a car like a business coupe.

The changed the bell housing when they changed to the late motor like the 230 so around '62 or 3 I think. When they switched from the stovebolt block to the later block the made the same bell housing fit V8 and 6 cylinder.

I think the truck bell housing had different ears for the mounts than the car bell housing. It seems to me like that was true. All truck bell housing even V8 had side mounts until '67 when they changed the body style. The car bell housing dropped the side mounts in '58.

Hope that helps a little bit and some may need to be corrected by someone else who knows something different than I do. but this is what I understand.

 

So you are saying there is a 1954 sedan thriftmaster, or a 1954 sedan 235?

 

I think they were the same motor. in '54 you would have had the Blue Flame or the Thrift master. The Blue Flame in the Corvette was sold as the export package if you got it in a regular car, but unless someone ordered one with the export package and welched on the deal it was not likely you would see one on the showroom floor.

OK now I have gone off the rails again. The thriftmaster could be had in the sedan as I recall. At least I have seen sedans with a thriftmaster in them and not a lot of engine swapping was done with those old heaps until recently when they became popular.