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Technical Champ quick change transaxle

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 55willys, Dec 31, 2020.

  1. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,661

    55willys
    Member

    My friend was talking about the transaxle in the 61-63 Pontiac Tempest and it got me to thinking about one of my back burner ideas. The Champ quick change has a 3-1/2" shaft spacing between the pinon and quill shaft. I thought about actually incorporating a transmission onto a quick change to give a car a better balance than the traditional setup with the engine and transmission in the front and a rear end at the back. The Tempest came with a transaxle and independent/ swing axle rear suspension.

    The idea is to attach to the back of a quick change a transmission with its tail shaft attached to the pinon and the quill shaft extended through the inside of the countershaft of the transmission. At the input side of the transmission, that would be pointed towards the rear of the car, you would put the change box for the quick change gears.

    The problem that I have run into is trying to find a transmission with the proper shaft spacing. The answer came in the form of the Mopar A833 transmissionon. It has the proper shaft spacing and is good for up to about 500 foot pounds of torque. This was the transmission that they developed to handle the torque of the mighty Hemi in 1964. It comes in a few different ratios and there is also an overdrive version as well.

    This could be the answer to many types of vehicles. It can be used in most traditional cars and also if someone was doing a mid engine set up in a corvair or other OT car. It could also work in high powered sand rails and such.

    I have a few champ quick change rears hanging on the wall and am going to persue what it would take to do this. I think that the case of the A833 has the counter shaft offset to the side so I will probably cast a case for it out of aluminum and make use of the internals that can be purchased new.

    I welcome thoughts on this and it actually fits in the 64 and older parts being used. It also fits with my signature line "Thinking outside the box in a traditional sort of way" KIMG1918.JPG
     
    Ned Ludd and kidcampbell71 like this.
  2. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 15,046

    DDDenny
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    from oregon

  3. studebakerjoe
    Joined: Jul 7, 2015
    Posts: 787

    studebakerjoe
    Member

    55willys you can get an aluminum case for the 833 from the factory. They had problems with the hole for the countershaft opening up but I seem to remember something about boring out the hole and fitting maybe it was a steel bushing.
     
  4. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,661

    55willys
    Member

    That's pretty cool looking. It's mounted upside down and offset because the shaft center of the T10 is 3.03" center to center and doesn't line up with the quick change shafts that are 3.0" on the V8 quick change and 3.5" on the Championship quick change.
     
    mgtstumpy likes this.

  5. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,661

    55willys
    Member

    Thanks, that's good to know. The reason I was thinking about casting it is that I can incorporate a central lower shaft, an internal shift rail like the corvair and others use and the change box mounting.
     
  6. mgtstumpy
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 8,838

    mgtstumpy
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  7. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,661

    55willys
    Member

    I am now looking for an A833/NP440 transmission. Preferably in Washington state. It can be the overdrive or non overdrive, aluminum or cast iron case.
     
  8. Pete1
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 2,023

    Pete1
    Member
    from Wa.

  9. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,661

    55willys
    Member

    That's sweet! The reason that the transmission is canted is because the shaft centers are different from the quick change. The A833/NP440 transmission has the same shaft centers as the quick change. Having the same shaft centers allows me to be able to run one shaft inside the counter shaft and keep the transmission vertical.
     
  10. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,527

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Correct me if I am wrong. You want to run the lower quick change shaft through the center of the transmission countershaft? In other words, a hollow countershaft through which runs a small diameter extended lower quick change shaft. Besides the obvious very limited torque the small diameter shaft would handle, you also have the issue of the splines required on that shaft at the "front" (rear) of the transmission for the quick change gears.

    And this would be set up as an IRS, correct? Otherwise you'll have huge unsprung weight.
     
  11. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,661

    55willys
    Member

    I was looking at the A833 specs and saw that there are at least 4 gear sets including one with overdrive. Then the thought came to me that you could modify the transmission to be like the T5 with an overdrive on the rear of a 4 speed.

    This could be done with the gears in the overdrive position of the 4 speed overdrive. It could also fit in the space where the change gears would normally be. This would give you a 5 speed transaxle with a change box on the rear. I think that would be quite a good set up for racing and street use.
     
    Ned Ludd likes this.
  12. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,661

    55willys
    Member

    Yes this would be IRS for sure. The thinking is that I would run a full size 1-1/4" lower shaft through the counter shaft. I would bore out the counter shaft to either accept bushings like the gears on the main shaft have or roller bearings like are in it now. I was also thinking about maybe boring it out and pressing a sleeve in it that would have bearings on the end in the case like some truck 5 speeds do. Then I would just support the extension shaft with bushings inside the counter shaft.
     
    Ned Ludd likes this.
  13. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,246

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    If I'm understanding this right, you're taking drive to an input shaft inside a hollow countershaft, up through the quick-change gears to the first-motion shaft, down through the first-motion gearset, and then up again through the various speed gearsets? The advantages I see are a compact package and you retain the quick-change facility. The disadvantage is that it's still a four-speed, though a hugely strong one, and not the sweetest-shifting one out there.

    If you forgo the quick-change you could do it a lot simpler, by taking drive directly to the countershaft. You'd need to separate the gear from the first-motion shaft and have it running on a bearing like the speed gears, possibly on a purpose-made longer mainshaft. You'd have to compensate in the ring and pinion ratio for the first-motion gearset (now the 4th speed gearset) ratio times whatever quick-change ratio — which might not be possible. And it would still be a four-speed a bit on the agricultural side.

    I think the concept might come into its own once you think of it as an auxiliary transmission, to be used in conjunction with something else. At a smaller scale there is a demand for something like this for motorcycle-powered cars, which usually not only need a reverse gear but also an overdrive or two to widen the ratio spread on a vehicle which is probably somewhat heavier than a motorcycle. I don't know if there were 3-speeds related to the A833/NP440: though going the simplified route I outlined above and not doing the first-motion gearset exercise would give you three forward speeds.

    And if the gearbox is strong enough to handle torque multiplied by, say, a full-manual three-speed automatic with a tall first-gear ratio and a torque converter, you'd have an effective six-speed (or seven-speed) with tight ratios and a fair ratio spread if you count the converter multiplication as a gear. You can dump line pressure as a clutch when shifting the transaxle because you'd be using the converter to launch.

    Have you considered turning the entire assembly around, so that the 4-speed sits ahead of the axle line? I can think of situations where that might be easier to package.

    Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
     
    55willys likes this.
  14. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,661

    55willys
    Member

    Ned always like hearing your thoughts on my crazy ideas. I like to think outside the box, I don't think you ever saw the box. I have looked at lots of ways of doing this and even looked at what others such as VW and Ford Pantera. They use an over the top shaft and gear to gear drive on basically the pinion shaft. There is usually no direct drive because even in high gear you are running two gears rather than just coupling two shafts together. There are 3 gear ratios available in the Champ quick change, the tallest being 4.11:1. That is what the change gears are for, to modify the original ratio to what you want. I want to use existing off the shelf parts as much as possible and that is why I am leaning towards the existing A833 transmission. Casting and machining a case are fairly straightforward things to do. There are already couplers designed to work in the shifter style quick change used in sprint cars so coupling shafts is made easier. Making transmission gears and synchros is much harder so existing parts in this area are better. I had thought about using modified change gears with dog clutches similar to my Harley Davidson transmission. It was going to be quite a job to do that and finding a transmission with the right shaft spacing sealed the deal. Another thing I have been looking at is being able to run the shaft above the ring and pinion instead of below. The difference is 7" overall 3-1/2" below the center line and 3-1/2" above it. This would allow for more options when it comes to connect directly to and engine. If you are below the center it would give a low center of gravity but might require the use of a dry sump for clearance. Above it would help with ground clearance such as would be used in a sand rail or such.
     
    Ned Ludd likes this.

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