Technical C4 Transmission help needed

Definitely transmission problems and the starter bendix is a known thing.

Don't get rid of the Flat O kit, it’s a quality item, the only way that the converter clearance would have been an issue was if a different converter than supplied with the kit was used or maybe the kit was not installed properly.

Something as simple as leaving out a spacer could do it.


https://www.flat-o.com/carproducts/flatomatic.htm

Good luck with the new transmission, and sorting out the converter.

 

Thank You. The engine had an oil pressure issue and some folks on here were able to point me in the proper direction to repair. If the same guy that rebuilt the engine was also his “transmission man” as the seller called him. Then there was no other reason than to start fresh on this repair.

 

I give up on mechanic work today. Going for a ride in one that does move under its own power ( I know another Milner clone lol. ). She’ll have to ride with me. Since hers is broken. Hers is not H.A.M.B. friendly because it’s got an IFS. But it does have a Flathead. An original dash. Tuck n roll upholstery steel hood and firewall.

 

Based on what Kevin said about the large and small bell I think that refers to the 157 tooth vs 164 tooth flywheel which do use different bellhousing portions of the case.I believe but am not positive that this coincides with the case fill vs pan fill cases.

 

^^^ Some of the earlier C 4 Transmissions had the fill dipstick tube in the pan and considered by some to be more robust. The majority have the fill dip stick tube in the case.

 

The furnished converter needs to be approximately 1” longer that would put it fully engaged in the pump and at the required depth for the flywheel. The new bell housing is 1” longer than the flat o Matic and the converter snout provided by speedway/PAT is 1/2 “ shorter than the snout on the one that had been used with the flat o Matic conversion . 2” vs 2.5” However the old converter shows issues on the outer surfaces. Which looks more extreme to me than just seal wear.

 

Looks like the pump bushing is coming out of the pump on your old set up.

 

I can’t seem to find any published advertised lengths for Ford torque converters.

 

Where I typically saw the pan fill was on trucks and vans,and cars usually had case fill but not always.The truck and van usage would make sense with the larger flywheel.The converter snout wear looks like where the support bushing is it looks like it would clean up enough to be usable with emery cloth,I seen worse it may be due the hot running you mentioned.

 

I’m not sure what to do. I’m obviously going to call Performance transmission in the morning. I’ve thought all day about going back to the Flat-O-Matic set up. But I do like the new starter set up. And it would require a new converter that I would have to purchase (More Money). Is there a way to check the front pump to see if it’s damaged without removing it? When the converter is all the way in. I’m able to rotate it.

 

Just keep in mind that if this is a Speedway kit it is not a flat-o-matic kit. It is a Chinese copy. When I worked for Speedway I found many mistakes with the Chinese imports. Too many times they can’t copy worth a shit

 

The Speedway flathead to C4 adapter kit is completely different and is in no way a copy of the Flat O kit which by the way is an American made quality kit made by an American hot rodder.
IMO a much better kit.
The Flat O kit.

Do these look the same to you?
The Speedway kit.

 

It would spin since it’s bolted to the flywheel


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The large case C-4 was used in pickup and large passenger cars usually with a 400M motor. Same bellhousing as a 429/460. We used that setup to run C4’s in large Ford motors up to 500cid. The converter is the same height as a C6 converter. Small C4 has a different converter stack height. Much shorter.


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I believe the only thing that was provided by the Flat-O-Matic company in the case of my car is the bell housing and the flex plate. The crank spacer appears to be almost like it was once some kind of speed sensor item. (Hard to describe) the converter looks to be reman convertor with a laser stamped part #

 

That neck is waisted like it’s been run too far out. That bushing has to be wiped out.


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The crank spacer came that way on my Y Block kit too it’s just the way Gene had them cut out on the laser table. Not a speed sensor.

I’d be tempted to call Flat O and order a new torque converter and a mini starter.
The end result would solve everything and be a better solution IMO.
All you’d have to do is install the Flat O bell housing on the new transmission and go from there.
(As long as the transmission hasn’t been damaged at this point)
That way you’d be sure to get a converter that would work with the transmission and adapter kit.
And a better starter too.

 

My bad, I have never seen the flat-o-matic kit but was told while I worked that their kit was a copy of a flat-o-matic kit

 

Kevin. Did they offer a short convertor like what appears to be in mine for the 164 tooth flywheel as that’s what was provided in the kit. lThanks.

 

Don’t think so. You need the taller converter. Performance Automatic should know about that.


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Eric,
Glad to hear your Flathead is doing good .
Sorry about the transmission,,,,if the converter was too short,,,maybe it didn’t engage the pump,,,,so no damage ?

Tommy

 

Not necessarily. It depends on the type of trans case the Flat-o bell housing is made for. The trans he has now is a pan fill which means the case flares out before bolting to the bell. The case fill does not have this flare. Which does the Flat-o bolt to?

 

I’m not really sure on that one, looking at the Flat O site they don’t address that.
They say that you can use any C4 from 64-81.
The main consideration is what specific transmission it is so that they can supply the right torque converter as they are different in the spline count.

 

Maybe their bell does clear the flare? I don't know because I have not tried.

 

I haven’t called PAT/Speedway yet as I wanted to have my info correct before I looked like a complete idiot. Been up half the night thinking about this. Here is what I have come up with. Fords were never my thing. So I’m ignorant to what fits what. #1. This transmission was an 1” longer than what came out of it. I assumed it was a Ford thing. Older trans vs newer so I extended the crossmember in the car. I believe now the issue is the bell housing. It’s exactly1” longer than what came out of it and it’s because it’s from a C5. It has a 1983 casting code.

 

Just tell them you have a big bell c-4 with a small bell converter in it. They should know what to do. Don't get technical with them. Tell them the studs don't come thru the flex plate. It's a common problem.

 

Update. I called PAT. The person I spoke with (Bill) was very nice and offered to have the transmission picked up or I can take it to them for inspection and to remedy any problems. It’s about a 3 hr drive for me. So I guess I’m going on a road trip Thursday. Thank You all for the help. Eric.

 

Keep us informed

 

That’s good please tell us what the resolution is.

 

A follow up : On Thursday my wife and I took the transmission over to Performance Automatic Transmission in Frederick Md who is the rebuilder of the Transmission that I purchased from Speedway. It was a little over a 3hr drive each way for us . Everyone there was very friendly and acted genuinely concerned about the issues and our time. They found the bell housing was the problem and it was replaced with what I noticed to have a 1979 date code . The converter and large flexplate was not exchanged .They also stated that they inspected the pump and also my work where I had removed the valve body to replace the lever for the shifter. I have since installed it and went for about a 5 mile road test today without issue. I would not hesitate to purchase again from this company a mistake was made but they handled it well in my opinion.Thank you all again for your help. Eric.