Has anyone had experience bad or good with C.A.T. rods, crankshafts, cams, roller rockers. I am pricing parts for the 455 Olds build for my 48 Olds and their parts are less then other manufactures. I have read their testimonials and they sound ok although I have been told that they are forged in china and machined in the states. Opinions?
Yeah...No. if You plan on making power, go with better rods than that. I have also heard they are a balancing NIGHTMARE.
I wouldn't put them in my cars, but I pride myself on using USA made parts. I won't even use some parts from Speedway now because of it. A cracked steering arm comes to mind, and it's really easy to see the differences between a real '50 Pontiac tail light and a Chinese one once you've had both. Only in rare circumstances would I ever use other stuff, and even then I prefer Canadian or Mexican built stuff.
The machine work on their parts generally leaves a lot to be desired....expect to spend money having it corrected. Even when the crank journals are round & within the desired limits, the quality of the finish is poor, as a rule. I am aware of three cases of roller rocker failure...one case being catastrophic, causing a large amount of internal damage (though that can't really be blamed on the rocker per se, as there were no internal screens to stop debris). I do know of a couple of truck pullers using 6.8 " BBC CAT rods with no particular problems, one of which regularly exceeds 8000 rpm...keep in mind, though, that he's using Diamond pistons, not big ol' heavyweight TRWs. Even so I would consider this to be living dangerously. So far as them being machined in the US...I can't say for certain, but I HIGHLY doubt it. My preference for entry-level kits is SCAT, but I don't believe they make anything for the big Olds; however, Eagle does. I would suggest that (as with any part) you inspect the Eagle machine work carefully; also, if there are lightening holes through the rod throws, make very sure that the holes do not weaken the throw excessively, particularly if you plan to make a fair amount of power. I've seen several cast Eagles now with journals that were only about .100-.130 thick on one side because the lightening hole was excessively offset. If you plan to make this a streetable engine only, truthfully, I'd use your existing Olds crank & rods and simply have them machined....I never had any problems up to about 550 hp, and they probably would have held more; I simply ran out of cylinder head (home-ported C heads at that time on a 455 + .030). Better heads are available nowadays if needed. Lux can probably tell you more as he's built at least one Olds since I have.
I just had a LOT of problems with a set of CAT hydraulic roller lifters. First, fit was much too tight in the block. Their "tech" said just fit them with emery paper - I should have thrown them away right then! Went on to use them, but they alternately lost adjustment ( clacked several times then reset - random lifters). Then got really noisy - pulled intake to remove them and found 2 aligning links pulled loose - rivits holding them were barely staked ( their tech examined and admitted were faulty). Lifters had turned, taking out the cam. Got my money back for the lifters - but not for the cam and labor to fix. My opinion - STAY AWAY FROM CAT
what duty level are You building this motor to? are You looking to rev the piss out of it every weekend at the drag strip, or simply drive it around town? what heads? what is the target compression ratio? which cam? which intake? just how big of a bully are You screwing together?
LUX BLUE, I have collected a good 70 toro block, along with set of Edelbrock heads, plan on using a performer maniford 770 to 850 Holly avenger carb full roller cam and rockers, and around 10.5.1 compression. Street able cam with enough vaccum to run basic accessories in my 48 Olds. Looking for hp in the range of 475 plus. Want to build it right as I plan to race it a little as well as drive it on the street
You don't need, or want, a roller cam for what you are doing, IMHO. A hydraulic roller setup would be nice, but you are adding quite a bit of additional cost which isn't necessarily needed at that power level. Roller rockers are a good idea. I'd consider using the Victor, especially if you are going to use a stroker kit; the extra CI "takes the edge" off a single-plane intake. If you are leaving it at 455 +.030 the Performer will work. I think for what you want, considering the weight of the car, I'd use a hydraulic cam, or possibly a solid cam if you don't mind keeping an eye on things, and use a relatively mild nitrous kit for racing.
almost all of the PAW (Perofromance Automotive Warehouse) house brand engine parts are CAT. I can tell you from first hand experience the cranks take A LOT of machining clean up just to get them ready to balance, then balancing can be a nightmare. The rods are decent for low to moderate horse power engines. I built a couple pump gas BBC 496 engines and they held up pretty good. one of them has been 8.60 with a small plate system and bearing showed no signs of stress.
This is a bit O.T., but with these companies that promote/sell inferior parts, HOW do they stay in business? Like everything else, you only hear about the "bad", hardly ever the "good". I'm NOT defending any on these companies in any way, I just don't see how they can stay in business if they're so bad. You get what you pay for, but don't they have to stand behind their junk? The import business has taken too much from our economy and way of life, based on our own greed and need. Don't even get me started on illegal aliens in this country. Basically, this is my belief, send them and their crappy products back where they came from; and it's time for a couple of new ammendments to the constitution. Butch/56sedandelivery.
My 462 runs all of the above (edelbrock heads, performer intake, SOLID roller, roller rockers, demon 850, etc,etc) on the street with no issues. I run stock rods in it with a.r.p. hardware. (well, polished and shot peened, but You get the gist.) My crank is knife edged, nitrided and balanced. forged pistons. even with a veritable shiteload of lift and duration, I have tons of vaccum at Idle. 475 horse with this combo can be done pretty much on accident. and whatever anyone tells You, You don't "need" a 3000 stall converter. a 2500 works just peachy. at 10.5 to one compression (which is probably about stock, i.i.r.c.) You can run dirty water for fuel with good heads and pistons. don't skimp out on the ignition. use the m.s.d. the difference is remarkable on an oldsmobile. what are You going to run for transmission?
he has the hood clearance for the victor, but to be honest, I wasn't "in love" with mine. it seemed a bit "flat" through some of the midrange. Although I hate to even mention it, the "proffesional products" air gap thing looks mighty fine. kinda like a performer r.p.m. for large Olds. but, last I checked, they are made overseas, therefore, I don't own one. it's about time Edelbrock stepped up and gave us a "middle ground" intake for large olds. we get "much better than stock" and "kill" what ever happened to "street/strip"? and Yeah- Nitrous+Oldsmobile= fun. it doesn't take much by way of the laughing gas to get Yourself in trouble in a big hurry.
simple math. volume+price=success. if You sell enough crap. sooner or later, someone will either figure out how to fix it, or tell You it tastes just like chicken.
There will always be Americans who shop strictly by price. Any professional engine builder will tell you that he/she has had customers who want the cheapest parts, even after they have been shown examples of why those cheap parts are a bad idea. On another board I frequent, there are many, many guys who will buy cheaply made shit and claim that "it's just as good" in spite of being shown repeatedly that it is not. These are the same guys who scream the loudest about "shitty customer service" after that part breaks and takes out expensive blocks, cylinder heads, etc., etc. Until the majority of Americans get over the mentality of expecting (thinking they deserve) a dirt cheap price, along with barely adequate quality, and instant availability, this problem wiill remain. The Chinese didn't do this to us...we did & do it to ourselves.
They (Victors) take a very, very careful setup to work on a 455+....and it needs to be fairly wicked to justify one.....on a bigger Olds they are more effective, for sure. I agree on the ProProducts stuff. A friend of a friend talked seriously with Edelbrock about doing a RPM or Air-Gap for the Olds and was told essentially, "Not going to happen; not enough volume (plus I think it wouldn't fit under a Cutlass hood if done correctly)." We were told the same thing about getting a better Victor or a "Super Victor" for the Ford 385 Series (so TFS is stepping up with a better intake within a few weeks ) I had some luck in the past with the Olds Torker, but it took a bunch of welding & general messing around to get it where I thought it should be. (shrugs)
do You have any experience with the mondello or d.m.r. intakes? they are freakin LARGE, but I am a suburban child of the 70's, so hood scoops don't scare me off. and Yeah. the torkers are turds. just say it. You know You want to.
I have a 153 tooth Chev flywheel on my '64 el camino, Few thousand miles no problems. But its the heaviest "lightened Flywheel" ive ever seen
I shop by price and product. I do the research and decide exactly which product I want to buy, and maybe a second choice, then find the cheapest vendor. I just bought a set of SCAT pro comp rods, a set of Milodon main studs, and a bunch of small moroso stuff, and paid the same as I would have for the offshore junk. I could have bought a set of CAT H bean rods for $10 more, but at least I know the SCAT's will work in my combo, have accurate machining, and are more than strong enough for what I am going to be doing.
CAT is one of those names that hopes that you get them confused with SCAT,which makes good parts. Kinda like the Motocraft parts that have boxes that look an aweful lot like Motorcraft.
It`s easy,they feed off the reputation and image of legitimate companys,such as Edelbrock,SCAT,etc,etc.
I've seen the Mondello Dommy piece, the (?) Posiflow, I think he calls it...the runners were smaller than what I would have expected, but it seemed nice enough. The owner was pleased with it, on a 488 (IIRC). I never heard about any back-to-back testing, so no idea how effective it was. I haven't heard of anything specifically from Dick Miller, I just thought he modified E-brock stuff to his own specs. Hmm, learn something every day. OK, I'll say it. The older Torkers are turds. Though the pinnacle of Torker turd-dom HAS to be the Torker 460 (not to be confused with the Torker II design).....drinking-straw runners, single plane, & an open box of a plenum...oh yeah, THAT'll make ungodly torque, low-RPM response, AND flow great to 6500... Even the 455 piece is better than that. Sort of.
PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T DO IT! You'll be sorry. They're CRAP, very bad port mismatching, we used to sell 'em and they always came back. You Olds guys keep at Edelbrock for an RPM intake... I have one on my FE and it KICKS ASS! But keep buggin' them, you might get surprised one day. They didn't design anything new for a Cleveland since the 70's (Performer and Torker, that's it) and everytime you emailed them, they said the same thing, low volume, never gonna happen. Here it is now, they have an Air-Gap manifold and aluminum heads added to their lineup, for an engine that only had a 5 year run at things.
Well I dont know. I've seen Scat, Eagle AND CAT rods/cranks go back for resizing and bearing bores were NOT right and journals that were out of round on brank spanking NEW cranks. Rumour here is that they are ALL made by one mob in China, some are finished machined there, others are finished machined Stateside. Who really knows? One thing I do know is that all parts MUST be checked for machining accuracy etc - no exceptions. One thing is for sure - manufacturing is screwed here and I'm sure its the same over there. We asked for it and we got it, now we're stuck with it. I still think there is a place for these parts if correctly used, but prob not for nasty/very high HP /Race applications. The interesting this is - before all these "high tech" parts came along, guys were running the numbers/times and were successfully beating on the engines reliably with well prepped factory parts and doin it WELL. Now, we need all these hi zoot, fancy named, you beaut parts that are a "MUST" ? Rat Rat
Scat's basic crank pieces are made in China by a factory that only produces for Scat; and then Scat machines them in the United States. So far as I am aware, Scat is the only brand that has their own, dedicated, contracted factory; everyone else out there gets their pieces from a couple of sources that sell to anyone/everyone. Most of it is machined in China, but I have heard some varied claims about brands. That's not to say that Scat doesn't make mistakes, because they have been known to; but as a rule their stuff seems pretty trouble-free. At least here in the US, the Scat dealers seem to be good about correcting the problem when it happens. Other brands...not so much. In my personal experience, (in this "entry" price range, so to speak), I would rank Scat at #1, Eagle #2, Ohio Crank & RPM somewhere between 2 & 3, and everyone else considerably lower. They all have their place, as Rat says, but people need to understand that they get (generally) what they pay for. If you see a cast crank for $250 less than a Scat, there is a reason. Some of the basic cast cranks are pretty stout- I am aware of several BBFs using the basic 9000 series Scats at 800 hp plus- but, the tune had better be right on and the main caps can't be walking around from detonation. At that point, moving to one of the import forged cranks is a safer option; and, something that a lot of guys don't know: often, the forgings don't require near as much Mallory to balance, so the additional cost of the forged crank, minus the unneeded Mallory metal, is often a better deal. So far as using the aftermarket parts vs. well-prepped factory parts: I think there's some good arguments either way. In the case of the SBC, it's getting difficult to find 400 cranks that haven't been beat to death already, so it's nice to just buy an aftermarket crank. Obviously it's easier to build a stroker engine. On the other hand, I see all too many guys who are CONVINCED they need a 557 BBF, when a 466 would do the job possibly better, WHEN the complete package is considered (head capability, suspension, etc.) One argument that does have some validity is that it is often almost the same cost to have the rods & crank machined locally, as it is to just buy aftermarket pieces. (& build a larger engine to boot.) Possibly true....assuming the aftermarket pieces are good to go out of the box. It's almost too easy to buy pieces nowadays that can build what was, a few years ago, a fairly exotic engine. it leads to a lot of unrealistic expectations, and, as Rat stated, the bottom line is: it all needs to be checked.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scat's basic crank pieces are made in China by a factory that only produces for Scat; and then Scat machines them in the United States. So far as I am aware, Scat is the only brand that has their own, dedicated, contracted factory; everyone else out there gets their pieces from a couple of sources that sell to anyone/everyone. Most of it is machined in China, but I have heard some varied claims about brands. Thanx for confirming my suspicions about this.... You got it in one, esp the part about creating unrealisitic expectations with these parts. Heres an example....Im building a blown Desoto 330 Hemi. I can substitute a set of BB Poncho Scat H Beams instead of using the 50+yo rods for the build. But If I get the Scat rods, whos to say they wont need machining/correcting/truing. If so, will I end up with a superior product to the resized/rebushed/beam polished and shot peened Hemi rods with decent rod bolts? Hmmm... Rat
CAT products are absolute junk and by the time you get it right at the machine shop you spent more than enough to go first class a couple of times.
Thanks, Sounds like I will not be going wit cat on this build , I already have a eagle forged steel crank so might as well stay with them for the rods as well. Now the next step is going with a light weight piston. althought I am not rich I will not cheapen this build. I want it to last as well as go fast. I will be mating it up to a Tremec TKO-600 5-speed set up. I used a turbo 400 behind my 455 in my 57 Olds and just wanted to go with a stick in the 48
Probe & SRP (the entry line for J&E Pistons) both make pretty decent sets of lighter weight 455 pistons. TRW/Speed Pro/Federal Mogul still makes their 455 pistons, and they are decent pieces, but they are heavy and so expensive, usually, that you can buy the Probes or SRPs for little more. Actually, just about any of the other major piston makers (Ross, Venolia, Arias, Wiseco, etc.) probably have decent 455 designs too, but they may have to be custom ordered, which adds time & cost, usually.
When I was putting together a 393C-4V, my 2 piston choices were Probe and SRP... I don't recall reading anything about the Probes that even was in the ballpark of praise. I went with the SRP's, excellent pieces, flawless machine work and dead-on weight. Great piston for the money!
I just assembled my engine using a set of the SCAT Prostock rods. Nice price, even better quality. I checked the weights and the lengths when I took them out of the box and they were just as advertised. <.001" variation in length and <1 gram variation in weight, ARP bolts.
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