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butt welding thin metal on a curved join

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by wex65, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. Yep!
     
  2. Not sure huh??
    Take what tin bender said into consideration.

    Well once they started selling welding machines of the shelf between toilet paper and beef jerky, everybody can get ahold of one.

    Now these same "everybodies" have a computer they bought off the shelf directly across from the welding machines and a TV they picked up in the next isle from the weldingachines. These computers are hooked to the Internet.

    These "everybodies" post whore about their experience with mig welds and base their level of experience on how much they have watched. Some of these dudes watch a lot of TV, years worth if you know what I mean. I've seen them argue with proven craftsmen who don't have a tv show.

    Then there are the parrots who read and regurgitate the very same info posted by the "everybodies" about their bad experience.

    You'll never be able to fix this and really only the guy behind the hood knows if the weld is good. Or the X-ray man.
     
  3. hooliganshotrods
    Joined: Dec 2, 2010
    Posts: 607

    hooliganshotrods
    Member
    from Calgary


    This is ridiculous information.....all of it.

    Mig welding is WAY more than pulling the trigger. a good welder understands puddle recognition, they are aware of where the wire is with relation to the puddle as to not get lack of fusion. Relation with the torch, push vs pull methods, so on. It's not pulling the trigger and going. My 6 year old can mig weld its that easy, though he does not yet understand what he is looking at. Point being, a 110V 0.023 S-6 wire is PLENTY capable of making sound welds, it comes down to the operator. Proper prep of material, bevels, gaps (for heavier sections). The most dangerous part of mig welding is lack of fusion and it doesn't matter if you have a 110v or 220v. If you don't understand how a short circuit transfer works then you SHOULD NOT be welding with mig.

    And sorry to say but there's a good chance that all that porosity in your welds posted had to do with the fact you were too lazy to prep your metal before you welded it........structural or not;)
     
  4. Pat Pryor
    Joined: May 28, 2007
    Posts: 1,877

    Pat Pryor
    Member

    Mig tig O/A they are all proven ways to repair Sheetmetal some take more time then others some require more work but its what ever floats your boat. Here's a dash I did with mig. You can't argue with the results. If you want to see bigger harder panels I've welded with mig look at some of my builds. I've had people just paint over my patch panels without any bondo. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1375358140.542704.jpg

    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1375358158.362533.jpg

    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1375358184.778788.jpg

    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1375358209.761256.jpg

    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1375358232.243023.jpg

    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1375358247.055370.jpg


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  5. thequietwon
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 600

    thequietwon
    Member

    Pat...
    In an earlier post you said something about grinding "the right way". What is your process? Do you knock the proud of the weld down with the edge of a cut-off wheel? Do you hammer & dolly your mig welds to stretch them back out? Always looking to learn, and you are right that your results speak for themselves.
    Thanks...
    Sam
     
  6. Fitty Toomuch
    Joined: Jun 29, 2010
    Posts: 245

    Fitty Toomuch
    Member
    from WVa

    What are you saying, there is a big gap or just a long joint and your concerned about warping? I`m in the camp of no wet rag, PM me your location and I`ll bring you a copper backup bar, these come in handy on inital tack up. It`s a long slow boaring process butt welding.
    If this is an inner wheelwell and will not be seen, running fenders? a small step flange is soo much easier, then you can grind the execess flange off from the backside
     
  7. ebfabman
    Joined: Mar 10, 2009
    Posts: 664

    ebfabman


    Not to seem like a jerk, but I did... did you read through the whole tread?

    Proper prep and cleaning produces quality results and doesn't take much time.

    I will post more pics of my work for everyone's critical eyes.... I'm always trying to improve....for over 30 years now....
     
  8. ebfabman
    Joined: Mar 10, 2009
    Posts: 664

    ebfabman

    Here you go.....

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    long panel butt welded with a mig

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    other side...

    [​IMG]
     
    31Vicky with a hemi likes this.
  9. hooliganshotrods
    Joined: Dec 2, 2010
    Posts: 607

    hooliganshotrods
    Member
    from Calgary

    ebfabman: Nice work.
     
  10. DadsBlueFord
    Joined: Oct 2, 2011
    Posts: 472

    DadsBlueFord
    Member
    from Hayden, ID

    ebfabman - that's really nice work. I assume that video you posted was you - can you post one slowed down a bit so we can see how you're doing it? What welder, settings, wire? Thanks!
     
  11. Very nice work efabman, I actually was intending to be of help to the orig poster posting what I thought was good info.
     
  12. I think it's very good info choprods. I wish you'd show more of your work.

    Efabman, beautiful work. You and a few others on here are proof that high quality work can and is done with MIG. I only bring up O/A as often as I do because it's such a nice process and leaves the metal so malleable. So many are under the impression that it's some kind of art or a talent you're born with. I hate to see people think it's too hard or too long of a learning curve, and miss out on this basic skill. Or think that MIG is easy. In my work I see a LOT of really crappy MIG work!

    To you guys learning to weld. Whatever process. Learn FIRST. Set up a bench get some scrap, and burn some metal. Lot's of it! Use any and all equipment you can get your hands on.......... then go weld on your car.

    Right now, I have to go out in the shop. I welded a patch in a T bird fender and warped the shit out of it! :rolleyes:Haven't lost control of one this bad in years :eek::D
     
  13. DadsBlueFord
    Joined: Oct 2, 2011
    Posts: 472

    DadsBlueFord
    Member
    from Hayden, ID

    I need to play around with some .030 wire. I've been doing everything with .023. I'm curious to see the difference.
     
  14. hooliganshotrods
    Joined: Dec 2, 2010
    Posts: 607

    hooliganshotrods
    Member
    from Calgary

    If you are using a 70s-6 wire, there won't be anything different with the exception that you will have to increase your voltage settings and wfs as it's a larger diameter than what you are used to. This in turn creates more resistance, more heat to melt the bigger wire and the potential for more distortion if not done right on sheet metal. I like a larger wire .035 for full penetration welds on structural stuff but I like the smaller wire for sheet metal if I don't tig it. If you wanna see a difference in puddle reaction, try a 70s-two wire, many more deoxidizers and very friendly on dirty, pitted material.
     
  15. jfreakofkorn
    Joined: Apr 13, 2010
    Posts: 2,640

    jfreakofkorn
    Member

    thanks for the link ....

    very informative :eek:
     
  16. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 18,002

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'd stick with the 0.023" wire, and work with the heat and feed settings.

    At my last job, we were forced to weld everything with 0.035" ER70S-7 wire. Not fun on sheet metal.
     
  17. ebfabman
    Joined: Mar 10, 2009
    Posts: 664

    ebfabman


    I can't slow down the video. It was edited and saved the way you see it. I will try to answer any question you have to the best of my ability.

    For thin sheetmetal I use a Lincoln 220v 170 amp welder. I use .023 wire with a C02/argon mix. Amp set is 60-70 amps and wire speed is fast for the amp set. Amps may seem high but I like to "hit it hot and fast" Good penetration is important because you'll be grinding off the proud of the weld. If you get a cold joint, when grinding is done and the panel is painted, it could crack at the joint. Don't go so much for pretty, go for penetration and heat control.

    choprods, I wasn't trying to bash you. Your work shows you are skilled, just need to clean things up a bit, no doubt your work will show it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
    hotrodA likes this.
  18. go-twichy
    Joined: Jul 22, 2010
    Posts: 1,650

    go-twichy
    BANNED

    wow! real body work being done! give him some space, it looks like he's done it before. you go into a modern shop these days, and its all about panel replacement. nobody fixes things like that anymore. great job.
     
  19. 64Cyclone
    Joined: Aug 30, 2009
    Posts: 1,496

    64Cyclone
    Member

    I'll give my advise but I'm an expert by no means. I use a Hobart Handler 140 because I read it was a good machine for thin sheet metal. When I first started trying to weld sheet metal on a body I kept blowing thru and burning holes. I had all the adjustments turned down (1 and 20 on my machine) but I think slow wire feed was a problem. I turned the wire feed up to 30 and power to 2 and suddenly it was working as I expected. I use good .023 wire with a 75/25 mix gas as I had read was recommended.

    Using this welder with those settings merits good results. I pretty well use the technique Pat Pryor explained.

    I don't bank on zero warpage. I have no problem with welding, grinding and applying a little filler. Nearly every body shop nation wide does this daily with no problems.

    To your original post op, try to get your butt line/gap as even as possible before starting. Prepping for the weld probably takes as long as the weld itself.
     
  20. Good thread. Just how much gap variation is tolerable? I have a patch where you can see thru in spots.
     
  21. Somewhat personal preference. Some like no gap. I like a gap about the thickness of the metal. MIG or gas. The more even the gap, the better.
     
  22. wex65
    Joined: Dec 19, 2012
    Posts: 1,100

    wex65
    Member
    from WV

    Despite being the OP I have held off replying to let the discussion flow among those FAR more experienced than I. I am happy I did.

    I truly appreciate the time people have taken to provide an insight as to how they would approach this type of job. I spent some time trying to get an even gap but found it nearly impossible with the curve of the panel and trying to hold it in the precisely same place each time. I will do the best I can but practice the bulk of this weekend till I get to the point I am no longer blowing holes.

    Confession time, I have a second set of wells en route from Snyders (see my other thread and AVOID Brookville wells!) after trying to tack one of the first set on. Didn't have enough patience and attacked the job only to blow multiple holes though. A learning experience... rather than butcher it I will simply remove the panel, hide it from the world and practice, practice, practice BEFORE attempting it again.

    I am using a Millermatic 211 Autoset which is a VERY good unit. I have it on lowest setting and still blowing holes. I am using it on 220v, maybe need to step down to 110v. Also, have 30 wire in it, will switch to 23 and see if that helps.

    Keep the comments coming, they are appreciated by many I am sure...
     
  23. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,196

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    Don't fret a mistake or miscue, at least unless you keep making the same ones. Since you're waiting for new stuff, here's something to try. Got any heavy aluminum? Can you back up what you want to weld? Try it. The aluminum becomes a heat sink to the thinner metal and will allow the fusion w/out burning away. It gets hot quickly.
     
  24. Fitty Toomuch
    Joined: Jun 29, 2010
    Posts: 245

    Fitty Toomuch
    Member
    from WVa

    Well, I offered to bring you a copper backup bar, "free" and being a 30 year experienced weldor could get you rolling on your panels. Either your paranoid and think I`m caseing your place or just don`t want any personal help, that`s fine, you can learn the hard way, keep blowen them holes and buying new panels:rolleyes:
     
  25. ago
    Joined: Oct 12, 2005
    Posts: 2,199

    ago
    Member
    from pgh. pa.

    Take the offer for copper backup and instruction. You can learn a lot watching someone with experience.



    Ago
     
  26. Can't tell if that's a popcorn ceiling or damage from slag..

    Sheet metal buttclamps and tack ... Tack... Tack...tack...tack


    Goodluck
     
  27. wex65
    Joined: Dec 19, 2012
    Posts: 1,100

    wex65
    Member
    from WV

    Fitty.I will PM you. Being honest I wondered what the hell you were referring to but just checked back and seen your first post, missed it before. I am more than humble enough to realize I don't know what I am doing and ALWAYS welcome help. Happy to provide iced tea/beer and burgers too!! :p

     
  28. DadsBlueFord
    Joined: Oct 2, 2011
    Posts: 472

    DadsBlueFord
    Member
    from Hayden, ID

    I have a 211 also. One of the guys who did the Woodward T came by to give me a quote on chopping my car, and took the time to set up my machine for how he does sheetmetal. His shop uses almost exclusively 110v units, and they're dialed up almost all the way on voltage and wire feed. He says it give him better penetration. That's pretty much how he set up my 211, at the upper range of the 110v settings. Seems to work well.
     
  29. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,939

    The37Kid
    Member

    At least you can see your O/A welds as you go. Most MIG welds I've seen done on sheetmetal were done with the welders eyes closed, one tac at a time, then the rest of the day grinding off 1/2 to 3/4 of the gob,and laying on Bondo. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I just don't plan on doing it on my car. :rolleyes:Bob
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  30. wex65
    Joined: Dec 19, 2012
    Posts: 1,100

    wex65
    Member
    from WV

    I remember someone saying to me a while back. You will wither get good with the welder or good with a grinder...:D

    Happy to say I will be seeing Fitty in a couple of hours. The plan is as follows:

    1) he arrives *
    2) he spends 30 mins in the workshop laughing at my work thus far. This will likely involve him having to sit down till the pain in his sides subsides.
    3) he points me in the right direction and sets the welder up to weld as opposed to blast away everything in its path.
    4) he has a final look at my work as he leaves and spends 10 mins sitting in his car laughing before driving away.

    * An airport security machine has been set up just outside the workshop to prevent cameras etc. Failure to detect these would result in posts to HAMB, to the merriment of all.
     

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