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Technical Brake M/C Sleeving?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by brigrat, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,734

    brigrat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Wa.St.

    Other than a google search can anyone recommend a M/C sleeving company that they have used? Thanks!
     
  2. fourspd340
    Joined: Feb 23, 2009
    Posts: 45

    fourspd340
    Member

    I have used these folks several times with rare/expensive master cylinders. Very quick turnaround and very knowledgeable.

    https://brakeandequipment.com/
     
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  3. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,316

    Paul
    Editor

    Hagen's in Puyallup
     
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  4. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,734

    brigrat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Wa.St.

    Boy, forgot about Hagen's, thieve been around a long time, thanks!
     
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  5. rockable
    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 2,557

    rockable
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  6. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 5,786

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    Apple Hydraulics in NY
     
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  7. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,734

    brigrat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Wa.St.

    Well I just got educated, it seems sleeving is just that sleeving a bore back to factory spec's. I need my M/C down sized from 1 1/8" to at least 1" or better yet 15/16" or 7/8". They said if they can find the rite "guts" they might be able to "stack" sleeves or @ $100 per hour make a one piece bore tube the desired size.
     
  8. Jmountainjr
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 825

    Jmountainjr
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I have had several sleeved from 1 1/8" to 78" in the past. The guy that did it for me has retired, but this info is posted on his old web site. I have not used any of these:
    The major suppliers of sleeving and rebuilding services are White Post Restorations (complete sleeve & rebuild) and Apple Hydraulics (sleeving only or complete sleeve & rebuild) both on the east coast, and Karp's Power Brake (sleeving only or complete sleeve & rebuild) in Southern California.

    http://www.whitepost.com/
    http://www.applehydraulics.com/
    http://www.karpspb.com/
     
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  9. Talk to Richard Lacy at earlyv8@aol.com (mail), earlyv8garage.net (web site). If I remember he had something like that done and may be ably to point you in the right direction.

    Charlie Stephens
     
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  10. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 5,766

    krylon32
    Alliance Vendor
    from Nebraska

    I've had a couple firewall mounted Chevy truck side by side MC's sleeved down on the clutch side for use with a Willwood slave. We used a Willwood single MC rebuild kit for the internals. The local shop just machined a sleeve and pressed it in. Worked fine.
     
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  11. Joe H
    Joined: Feb 10, 2008
    Posts: 733

    Joe H
    Member

    Why would you sleeve one down? More pressure? Just asking to be nosey.
     
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  12. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,734

    brigrat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Wa.St.

    ^^^^^^^^^^ I have an immediate hard pedal with little to no stopping power.^^^^^^^^^
    A classic sign of to big of bore for system, smaller bore means more pressure to brakes with same leg effort I have been told!
     
  13. Joe H
    Joined: Feb 10, 2008
    Posts: 733

    Joe H
    Member

    That makes sense.
     
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  14. It could also mean that the leverage applied by the linkage is wrong. Any chance the smaller master cylinder won't supply enough fluid to the wheel cylinders? Maybe it is time to look at the entire system?

    Charlie Stephens
     
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  15. I assume from your previous post, you are using a GM truck brake/clutch master; maybe some further info on the rest of the system may give insight into what is wrong. Pedal ratio? Brakes?
     
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  16. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,734

    brigrat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Wa.St.

    Anything is possible Charlie!
    Since you asked Rich B!
    The rest of the story. '34 Ford P/U, GM disc up front, 9" Ford rear brakes, early '60's GM truck firewall mounted brake/clutch M/C, both bores are 1 1/8", 2# front, 10# rear residual valves. A good 7:1 pedal ratio, no adjustable proportioning valve to rear. I am trying something different, running the clutch side of M/C to the front disc brakes and the one marked "brakes" to the rear brakes. Mounted an adjustable balance bar on the pedal that actuates push rods to the 2 bores. I have never seen or herd of this being done but I am sure someone has over the hot rodding years.
    Yes I understand that I should be using math to figure out things BUT I will be winging it traditionally......................
     
  17. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,316

    Paul
    Editor

    what are the bore diameters of the masters originally paired with the front and rear brakes? Manual, no power assist.
     
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  18. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,734

    brigrat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Wa.St.

    It seems bores average between 7/8" & 1" mostly, every system requiring something a little diff.
    Another side effect of going smaller is what Charlie alluded to, more pedal travel. That can be an issue in a small interior and "close" toe board......................
     
  19. Don't believe your balance bar idea would work, can't gain any leverage that way.

    Maybe just remove the truck master and mount a pair of '57 or so Ford masters; 1" bore and I have used them in the past with a Chevy clutch slave.

    Could always stick a hydro-vac under the front of the bed.
     
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  20. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,734

    brigrat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Wa.St.

    I don't need leverage, got enough!
     
  21. I guess that all came out wrong.

    I didn't mean mechanical leverage as in pedal ratio; I meant you do not gain anything hydraulic by pushing on two cylinders vs one.

    I mentioned the dual 1" masters working with Ansen style pedal as you had voiced a concern with pedal travel related to using a smaller bore. Still think a switch to two cylinders would be the easy way out.

    I think it was @55willys that was promoting the small dual hydro-vac a while back which might work in conjunction with your truck master.
     
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  22. jebbesen
    Joined: Aug 18, 2015
    Posts: 369

    jebbesen
    Member
    from Winona, MN

    I'm building a similar setup with two 50 Chevy masters. I tagged you in my build thread. There's some sleeving info there too. I use bronze bushing stock from McMaster Carr. Message me if you have more questions. IMG_20190707_082449.jpg
     
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  23. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,734

    brigrat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Wa.St.

    Rich B, I have in the past used those divorced boosters, think they were based off or was T Bird. Don't think I need one here, will see!
    Jebbesen, Don't know how I missed your build thread, really impressive work and attention to the annal things! Here's pic's of what I have going, similar to your idea's. Being a holiday weekend I can't get any one mentioned above to field questions till Mon. To throw a wrench into the hole thing the brake side of M/C was designed/intended for 4 wheel cylinders not just 2, will have to see where this comes into play............................
    DSCF0210.JPG DSCF0211.JPG DSCF0212.JPG DSCF0213.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
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  24. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,734

    brigrat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Wa.St.

    So Hagen's is out all they do is "sleeves" no down sizing. Will car the mentioned places above tomorrow, but their all going to want to know what size I want to downsize to.
    My thought is to find out what bore size a normal GM (front) disc brake M/C uses and downsize my dedicated front bore to that size. Next find out what a normal 9" Ford M/C requires for rear drum brakes and downsize my dedicated rear side to that size. Make sense?
     
  25. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,316

    Paul
    Editor

    logic sounds ok,
    my gut says you may only need to down size the front cylinder, to 1" or slightly less, 15/16" maybe?
    and leave the rear alone.. (not based on any facts or science..)
     
  26. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,734

    brigrat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Wa.St.

    Well maybe I could "block off" the front and push on pedal to see how just the rear feels.....................................
     
  27. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,316

    Paul
    Editor

    Where are you exactly?
    I use Doug Dye in Federal Way for misc. machine work. He could do it
     
  28. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,734

    brigrat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Wa.St.

    Wenatchee Valley!
    I have a lathe & milling machine, I could probably kick a couple reducing sleeves out, just didn't want to learn a new trade! I can envision all kinds of details starting with what material to use, how to hone it, etc.. You might be right about only having to do the fronts.................
     
  29. jebbesen
    Joined: Aug 18, 2015
    Posts: 369

    jebbesen
    Member
    from Winona, MN

    I buy a bronze bushing from McMaster in the ID that I want to finish at. Make a mandrel to put it on in the lathe and turn the outside down. That way the bore keeps it's pretty bushing finish and doesn't have any taper. Make it a real light press or a push fit into either your existing bore or whatever you bore the inside out to. Use 680 Loctite sleeve retainer and you won't have any trouble. I've done masters, slaves, and wheel cylinders that way. Hone the bronze bore lightly to put a light crosshatch pattern in and you're good to go.
     
  30. jebbesen
    Joined: Aug 18, 2015
    Posts: 369

    jebbesen
    Member
    from Winona, MN

    This Chevy masters has a .030 wall sleeve. IMG_20190603_225257.jpg
    My mandrel for that sleeve.
    IMG_20190710_211015.jpg
     
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