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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    What contributors have we here assembled!
     
  2. Jim Scammell
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 36

    Jim Scammell
    Member


    Thanks for the photo T-H,
    but, the perplexing thing is that that photo is of the bigger sibling to the Essex Four. That great shot is the 1920 Hudson Super Six 'Pike's Peak' Special, the big brother. The photo was taken on the same day in the same place as the Essex Four. It certainly is useful in helping with my project, but where is the same shot in high res of the Essex? As you saw above, I have the Essex low resolution LHS shot, so the high res version of the shot must have existed, but where is it now?

    Apparently this low res Essex pic was a scan of the photo in an early publication of The History of Hudson by Don Butler.

    I have seen other period Hudson and Essex photos taken in the same place.

    Interestingly, they (the Hudson factory) must also have taken a photo of the RHS of this Hudson beauty, but in 35 years of hunting I've not yet discovered it.

    Thanks for your help.
    Fingers still crossed, the hunt continues.

    Regards
    Jim
     
  3. Jim Scammell
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 36

    Jim Scammell
    Member

    Sorry T-H,
    I have now looked at the other side photo. That other side is the small brother Essex Four, of which I have a very high resolution.

    The Hudson has twin exhaust, while the SX4 has a single pipe.

    Thanks again for your interest.

    Cheers
    Jim
     
  4. Jim Scammell
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 36

    Jim Scammell
    Member

    Molin61,
    I have a Bugatti owning friend with a serious interest and understanding of the marque. I requested the following of him and he responded with the following opinion of the two photos (B&W and colour) of the cars on your blog. Hope this provides more info for you.

    Regards
    Jim

    My Request:
    These photos were published by an enthusiast in Sweden. He is building a replica based on 1930 Hudson/Essex.

    Some observers reckon it looks like a Bug maybe with Hudson engine.

    Please cast an eye over it and let me know if you can determine whether it is a Bugatti special. I think the photos are possibly two different cars, that based on the steering box position. But the colored car may have been the B&W photo car stretched later to fit a say a Hudson 8.

    Friend's Response:
    I doubt there is anything Bugatti in the car in the coloured photo. The car is LHD (which Bugatti never made) the steering arms are far too big for Bugatti, the rear springs are definitely non-Bug and the rear suspension ditto. The wheels look to be too fat for Bug wires and the brake drums too big (Bugatti large diameter brakes such as on my T37A were only 330 mm dia). Whilst the b&w 2nd photo foreground car is probably the same car at an earlier stage it also is not a Bug and I can't see a single part of either which might be of Bug origin. The damaged car in the background to the b&w photo is undoubtedly a GP Bug with blade wheels. I suspect these cars crashed in South America somewhere. Bugatti GP body shapes were copied by many in the 20s and 30s. This looks like another.
     
  5. Very nice project. Looking forward to more updates.



    But, but, Don Capps says...Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  6. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 6,958

    noboD
    Member

    Calm yourself, Mr. Biscuit.
     
  7. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 10,541

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    ^ Outstanding. I've always wanted to see that place. Really good news. Gary
     
  8. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,777

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Nice project Molin. I highly recommend that you add a series of holes in your bucks to make it possible to clamp the body metal to the buck using C-clamps of C-Vice Grips, like my nose buck:

    [​IMG]
     
  9. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    Who was the first American (USA) driver to win in Europe? We had this topic last night at the club and there were varied answers, no one really knows. Over to you, the learned ones. Please.
     
  10. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

    It might have been George Heath, driving a Panhard, at the Circuit des Ardennes (held in the vicinity of Bastogne) on 25 July 1904.
     
  11. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

  12. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,990

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Good stuff Don!
     
  13. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 240

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    I found an interesting set of mechanical drawings that are dated April 1931. This was for a proposed Indy car effort, based on a Model A Ford engine. The special parts were designed by A. Chevrolet, and drawn by his son (A.C. Jr.). As we all know, this project went nowhere.

    Anyone here have a Bridgeport Milling Machine?
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  14. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,300

    ehdubya
    Member

  15. ago
    Joined: Oct 12, 2005
    Posts: 2,200

    ago
    Member
    from pgh. pa.

    Zig Zag, I like the drawings, any full downloads of the prints?


    Ago
     
  16. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 26,235

    The37Kid
    Member

    Zig Zag, do those drawings have any connection to the Stagger Valve Fronty that was produced around that time? Bob
     
  17. ebtm3
    Joined: May 23, 2007
    Posts: 837

    ebtm3
    Member

    ZigZaG--

    I would like to see more detail, especially the rod print. I have a set of tubular rods for a FB Chevy four that i have started, and have to get back to.

    Herb Kephart
     
  18. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 768

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    As we all know? Am I missing something? Or, have you forgotten that a Model A Fronty Ford was entered in the 1931 Five-O-O?
     
  19. Don Capps
    Joined: Feb 13, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Don Capps
    Member

    Well, chassis '2523' never existed, being a new plate put on '2501' in 1958 by the factory, as well as being used at various times on '2507' and '2522', as well. Actually, Bira won the 1955 Ardmore race using chassis '2509' and not '2504' as Young suggests. Therefore, it was '2509' that Gould bought and then sold to Halford. Bira ended up with '2509' after Halford crashed '2504' at Silvertone in the British GP, the Owen team switching its chassis, '2509' with Bira so that he could make the grid at Caen the following weekend. The Owen team repaired '2504', but for various reasons Bira and the Owen team never switched cars back to their original owners. The replacement chassis for '2509/2504' that was damaged at Aintree, '2504/56', was never owned nor raced by Bira.
     
  20. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 240

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    The Blue Prints were quite large and were too large to be scanned on a standard copy machine.
     

    Attached Files:

  21. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 240

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    Here's the Crankshaft drawings.
     

    Attached Files:

  22. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 240

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    Good question Bob, but I am not sure. I found these materials, and a series of letters & telegrams between Art Chevrolet and Edsel Ford. Art was soliciting Ford for financial support in building a car for the 1931 race. One of Art's letters alludes to a special cylinder head for the Model A Ford, but no specs or drawings were given. The car was to be based on a Model A frame. Art claimed the car could cut laps in the 110+ MPH range, and would be competitive. Edsel rejected the offer citing Ford's policy on racing, and the interruption it would cause to their shop schedule.

    Michael I am glad you chimed in. I was under the impression that the only Fronty in the 1931 race was a "T" based car driven by Gene Haustein. I know that Francis Quinn finished last in a Miller/Ford A combination, but wasn't sure if this had anything to do with Art Chevrolet. Likewise Charles Moran & Rollin May had entries in Ford A equipment, but these cars did not qualify for the race. Did Mr. Chevrolet built a Model A car for the 1931 500?
     
  23. ebtm3
    Joined: May 23, 2007
    Posts: 837

    ebtm3
    Member

    Thanks, ZigZag !!

    Copied.

    Herb Kephart
     
  24. ago
    Joined: Oct 12, 2005
    Posts: 2,200

    ago
    Member
    from pgh. pa.

    Zig Zag,
    Great prints, thanks.


    Ago
     
  25. out plowing
    Joined: May 5, 2010
    Posts: 364

    out plowing
    Member

    ZigZagZ would you be willing to make full size copies?

    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  26. joemac05
    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
    Posts: 288

    joemac05
    Member

    How is this lookin'

    Ooooop, messed up, I'm trying again

    Cam Big.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2014
  27. ago
    Joined: Oct 12, 2005
    Posts: 2,200

    ago
    Member
    from pgh. pa.

    Very good!!

    Ago
     
  28. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 768

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Haustein's Fronty had a Model A engine, although it was installed in an older two-man T chassis, quite likely the same that Chet Miller had driven the year before with a T engine. Both entries were made by the team of Stan Reed and Tom Mulligan of Detroit, who also operated under the name of Fronty-Ford Sales of Michigan - it was a quasi-works Frontenac team.

    I'm pretty sure it was a Stagger Valve, too, although I haven't yet found anything in period sources so far, which is rather unusual. Perhaps a little secretive, old Art?

    The Francis Quinn Model A Ford was a Cragar engine in one of the two 1930 Miller two-man cars. Actually, it was a "Miller-Ford" engine, built before Cragar took over the manufacture. It was entered by the same team that also ran the Miller-Ford single-seater (known as the Billy Arnold Special, Allen Special and Tucker Tappet Ford) with which Ernie Triplett totally dominated the West Coast sprints in those days; perhaps it was even the same engine.

    Triplett very nearly won the National Championship race at Detroit with this car and engine, but for a puncture, and when he changed teams later that year, he had his new car owner Bill White purchase the chassis and install a 16-valve Miller 220 for the 1932 Indy 500. Here again, Triplett led at half distance, but lost the race due to mechanical problems.

    The Charles Moran entry is pretty obscure, but I don't think Rollin May had a car for the 1931 Indy 500. Californian Walt May (no relation) was entered in a Schofield Special which some secondary sources identify as a Model A Ford. Period sources, however, are clear about the engine being an 8-cylinder Studebaker, modified by Schofield Automotive Engineering, the successor to the company that had owned Harry Miller's company for a short period. Schofield-Studebakers were popular in "class B" dirt track racing for a time, but it is difficult to track those engines since early Miller-Ford/Cragars were also sometimes entered as Schofield specials!
     
  29. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 240

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    Michael I really appreciate your reply, and your research & analysis into the machines that competed in the 1931 race. I talked to Fronty Historian Kem Robertson tonight, and he is thoroughly convinced that these are indeed AF16 blueprints. And yes this was the mill used in the Haustein car.

    What I find interesting is that this engine went from the drawing board to the race track in a very short period of time. Quite remarkable.

    I am sir much obliged,

    ZZZ
     

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