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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. great set of 1908 Panhard images:

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  2. A set of images I have never seen, Elliot Zborowski (the first Count Zbrowoski to die in a racing car crash, Jarrot's book covers the crash in detail) at the 1902 la Turbie hill climb

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  3. and some more paris Madrid images:

    civelli de bosch (clément 30-hp) dnf, light car class

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    rais (mercedes) 69th overall, 39th in heavy car class

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    fernand gabriel (mors) 1st overall, 1st in heavy car class 3

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    gasteaux (mercedes) 8th overall, 7th in heavy car class

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    henri farman (panhard 80-hp) dnf, heavy car class

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    henri rougier (turcat-méry 45-hp) 11th overall, 9th in heavy car class

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    ert le blon (serpollet steamer) 17th overall, 14th in heavy car class

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    j edmond (darracq) 31st overall, 7th in light car class

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    lebertre (de dion) 85th overall, 18th in voiturette class

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    mme camille du gast (de dietrich 30-hp) 77th overall, 45th in heavy car class

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    paul baras (darracq 40-hp) 10th overall, 2nd in light car class

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    thanks to the french for all of the above...

    http://www.forum-auto.com/sport-auto/histoire-du-sport-auto/sujet378408.htm
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
  4. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Probably Dan Higgin. Definitely no S. :)

    Although the only trace I can find of him at Brooklands in 1926 is in a Vauxhall.

    http://www.austinharris.co.uk/photo/1926-barc-july-meeting/2367

    Boddy says that was his Brooklands debut. He's better known for his TT exploits in the late 20s and early 30s. Having said that, maybe this is some minor club meeting?
     
  5. This looks more 1906 Brasier than '08, but I could be wrong.

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    1906 for comparison:

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    1907:

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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
  6. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

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    Harry Miller’s first masterpiece, a SOHC 16-Valve – Four Cylinder Engine and the Golden Submarine many more photos and info here.

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  7. psalt
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 101

    psalt
    Member
    from nyc

    David,

    This engine raises the question of why did Miller chose this SOHC layout , when he had already built the Burman-Peugeot DOHC ( twin cam )? I think I know why he went back. What was the inspiration for this design ? It appears that Harry had figured out the benefits of different sized valves, when the Pug and Merc were using the same sized valves.

    Paul
     
  8. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 779

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Harry Miller didn't "built the Burman Peugeot DOHC", he repaired an existing engine - there's a huge difference! What he (and his team) did in detail is still not entirely clear, but the existing documentation lists a new block and crankshaft (plus spares), new valves, pistons, con-rods and a few more peripherals, in addition to which he modified the oiling system. The salient feature of the Peugeot engine, its entire valve train, was left untouched.

    What Miller and his shop did in the two years between the Peugeot job and the first race appearance of the alloy SOHC engine is even less certain, but there is clear evidence that they were busy trying to sort out various engine projects. It is my firm belief that the first automotive design of those (he started with an SOHC aircraft engine) was a DOHC design, commissioned by Burman, who died before it could be completed. Apparently, Miller experienced a lot of trouble during the gestation of this engine, and that may have swayed him to a more conventional (and less complicated) design for his next customer, cinematographer A. A. Cadwell.

    The DO "Burman Miller" was eventually completed, and the evidence is that at least two engines were run in different cars, the old Peugeot and a 1915 Stutz, with some modest success. However, this line of investigation is in contrast to earlier research by other historians, notably Joe Freeman, and is not yet fully developed. For a more detailed discussion of these things, cf. the "American racing 1894 to 1920" thread on The Nostalgia Forum of autosport.com at http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=90310, especially the latest posts.
     
  9. psalt
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 101

    psalt
    Member
    from nyc

    My favorite tool is the old hammer with the replacement head and new handle......The existence of what Borgeson called the "Miller-Burman", not the Burman Miller, only makes the argument stronger. If there were three blocks, and if the first "only" had a Peugeot head, the second a new SOHC design he claims was run at Indy and the third a new DOHC with enclosed valves, he certainly was more than familiar with the DOHC design before this engine. I think it was more a case of the "Merc that beat the Peugeot" DNA creep. Considering the Merlin, it gave Genghis Khan good competition.
     
  10. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 779

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Griff Borgeson was mistaken about a lot of details on the Miller/Burman deal. Yes, there were three blocks (two new ones and the repaired original), but only one engine! There's absolutely no evidence that Miller touched or even reproduced anything of the valve train, it was all left original, hence the engine was still a Peugeot. Amongst engineers, the saying goes that "the head IS the engine", so your quip about it having "only" a Peugeot head doesn't really make sense. Especially not in the context of the SOHC and "DOHC with enclosed valves", which were both designed at a later stage - in fact, the latter is exactly what I believe to be the "DO Burman Miller", completed after Burman's death in 1916 and (apparently) not raced before 1917!
     
  11. psalt
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 101

    psalt
    Member
    from nyc

    I can't see how anyone can look at the clear photo of the "Miller-Burman" engine on page 13 of Borgeson's Miller book and see a SOHC or a Peugeot cylinder head.
     

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    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012
  12. on a purely hypothetical note, the Hall-Scott company in berkeley designed and built a single over head cam 4 cylinder engine of remarkable similarity to the Miller SOHC. If i recall Borgeson's book he asserts that the cam profiles that were eventually used in the Miller engine came from the Hall-Scott firm.

    As a purely hypthetical, could there have been a government aviation contract out that spec'd an SOHC motor of 4 cylinders? the reason i pose that, is that here are 2 engine manufacters producing markedly similar engines at the same time. The Miller engine was described as being for an aviation application, the Hall-Scott of course being mass produced during WW1.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
  13. psalt
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 101

    psalt
    Member
    from nyc

    Borgeson implies that the specs for this motor were dictated by Lincoln Beachey, by referral from Hall, much like the specs of the VW were dictated by Hitler to Porsche. Hitler's insistence that Porsche copy Hans Ledwinka's designs has been covered up in most of the glossy coffee table text, despite the loss of the legal action. For some reason, Borgeson does not compare Miller's SOHC design to the earlier SOHC Chevrolet/Planche "aluminum" engine, which shares some significant design innovations.
     
  14. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

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    While this OHC discussion is going on you might like to learn a bit more about the SOHC Hall-Scott 824.67 c.i. six aircraft engine that was used in two Fageol cars that were built in 1917. We also have a couple of interesting articles from the Horseless Age that describe it and a photo of the Hall-Scott assembly line.

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  15. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 779

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Another case of Borgeson getting it horribly wrong - Beechey died in early 1915, more than two years before this engine was built.

    If it sounds like I'm on a bashing-Griff trip, it ain't so! Borgeson was a very bright light in a very dark jungle, half a century ago. The only gripe I have with him is that he chose to ignore or actually fight further research, done by other historians, later in his life. Borgeson simply couldn't admit that he was wrong, even if only in detail questions. Other than that, we owe him much respect!! Just don't take his word for gospel...
     
  16. psalt
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 101

    psalt
    Member
    from nyc

    The Sub engine is four cylinder, the earlier six cylinder version was installed in Beachey's biplane by Fred Offenhauser who flew in it. Made up ?

    Fred Offenhauser flying in a biplane powered by an early experimental Miller engine..... a pretty nice picture.

    If Borgeson made it up, it is three pages of good fiction. The owner of the biplane died in a rotary engined monoplane soon after. Good thing Fred was not there.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  17. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,931

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Gwenda Stewart with her Miller in 1934 at Montlhery.Then her Miller in contemporary times...
     

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  18. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    Banjeaux bob, thanks, got Googling and learned that she took world records in 1933 for mile and kilometer at over 234 km/h.Quite something! I find these lady drivers are really facinating, have a collection of pictures, might post one of these days.
     
  19. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,331

    The37Kid
    Member

    Bugatti Queen Helle Nice with Larry Beals and his ex Ira Vail MILLER at Woodbridge New Jersey August 10, 1930.
     

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  20. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    Do you know http://speedqueens.blogspot.co.uk/? :)
     
  21. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 5,931

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    I did see the reviews of the book when it came out.No,I have not seen this website.

    BanjeauX Bob
     
  22. As much fun as this thread is, the subject of books is so very important to the way we see history. I try, as time and resources allow to find original source material where possible. Not that even those books can be taken for wrote, but that it is fun to experience things through the eyes of those who were there. Being a silly MG operator, I have a soft spot for the english and their motoring endeavors.
     

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  23. Vitesse
    Joined: Feb 9, 2010
    Posts: 264

    Vitesse
    Member
    from Bath, UK

    By book, I guess you mean Jean-François Bouzanquet's "Fast Ladies"? Un petit peu trop français unfortunately, and rather poorly translated.

    John Bullock's "Fast Women" and Sammy Davis' "Atalanta" are also worth looking at, but Rachel's blog is possibly the most comprehensive study out there.
     
  24. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    Fur biscuit, I see the book of all books in your library "Combat" superb MG reading, what?
     
  25. Saacha,

    The 3 book series by Mr. Lyndon (born Alfred Edgar) "Circuit Dust", "Combat" and "Grand Prix" all cover the exploits of MG over a 3 or so year period. "Combat" is lots of fun, lots of great MG based exploits. "Grand Prix" still covers a lot of MG stuff, but you get a great sense of racing in the Voiturette class with the ERA's.

    Mr. Lyndon was a superb writer, who turned out a series of wonderful books in a short time frame, seemingly long on budget you feel as if he travelled to every race and event that he wrote about. He also co-wrote a number of books with Capt. G.E.T. Eyeston.

    Sadly, history seems to show that about the end of the 30's he packed up and moved to California to work in the movie industry.:

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0528530/

    I think this would be a great place to compile a list of his automotive works.

    As an aside, for those who like period automotive lit, try searching for the publishing house "G.T. Foulis", they turned out tons of great books during the 20's through 40's.
     
  26. psalt
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 101

    psalt
    Member
    from nyc

    Miller 6 cylinder SOHC aero engine, father of the 4 cylinder Sub engine. Looks fairly real, perhaps even metal, Harry and Bob in the background. Beachey or Christofferson Brothers inspired, Fred in the air powered by this would be the first scene in my movie.
     

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  27. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 779

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Father?? I fail to see any similarity between this engine and the engine for the Sub beyond the most basic fact that both had a single overhead camshaft. And Beechey had absolutely naught to do with this engine, if contemporary papers are to believed. It was written up in much detail in the period press, and also later by Mark Dees. Apart from the questionable Beechey reference, I'm really curious as to why you think this engine had anything to do with the Sub engine?
     

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