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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 784

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    I've looked at the flickr site, but can't find the better resolution pictures. I'd really LOVE to see them, and check for more detail in the pictures, so PLEASE, PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE, where can I find the 1500 px versions??? :)


    EDIT Never mind, found it... :eek:
     
  2. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 784

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Well, the flickr link also confirms the Brockton ID, but has Ray Keech as the driver of the #39 Duesenberg. I have Keech in a Miller for that race, but I know he drove that Duesey also a few times (he actually owned it, it seems), and the physique of the driver in the pic certainly resembles him. Perhaps a last minute driver change?
     
  3. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 784

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    As for the board track pictures, I checked a few photographs, and it's definitely Rockingham, which the flickr site also confirms.

    [​IMG]

    This is the line-up for the opening race, and interestingly, it doesn't conform to any starting grids I have seen for that race! A quick'n'dirty ID of the cars:

    front row: de Paolo (Duesenberg) and Bennie Hill (Miller)
    2nd row: Duray (Miller) and Hartz (Miller)
    3rd row: Devore (Miller) and Cooper (Miller)
    4th row: Elliott? (Miller) and Hepburn (Miller)
    5th row: Comer? (Miller, but wrong colour :confused:)
    6th row: Shattuc? (Miller, again wrong colour?) and Shafer (Miller)
    7th row: Kreis (Duesenberg) and Wonderlich (Miller)
    8th row: Batten (Miller) and McDonogh (Miller)
    9th row: Jimmy Hill? (Miller) and Milton (Duesenberg)
     
  4. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 784

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    [​IMG]

    July 5, 1926: Shafer (Miller 91) and Batten, Morton and Elliott in rebuilt Miller 122s.

    [​IMG]

    Again, July 5: de Paolo (Duesenberg), Lewis (FD Miller), Hartz and Bennie Hill (Miller 91), Elliott (Miller 122), two "Locomobile" Millers and Cooper in the second FD Miller, etc.

    [​IMG]

    too blurred to ID :(
     
  5. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 784

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    [​IMG]

    Rockingham Speedway's board track was razed in 1929, and a one-mile dirt track built at the same site a bit later. Apparently, only three races were held on the dirt track, Sep 7 and Oct 12 in 1931, and June 26 in 1932. I believe this picture shows the start of the second heat on the latter date, a meeting that was hampered by poor track conditions and many accidents as well as delays, so the heat was cut from ten laps to five.

    Front row appears to be Bob Carey in the McLain=Tarbet/Cragar and Jimmy Patterson (Katz=Miller/Duesenberg), then perhaps Ira Hall (Hall/Frontenac) and Frank Farmer (Yagle=Miller/Hispano-Suiza)?, Joe Russo (Duesenberg) and Malcolm Fox (Romthe/Studebaker), followed by... a cloud of dust! :D According to reports, there were 15 starters in this heat. In the background, Al Miller's Marr/Hudson Indy Car can be seen parked at the pits.

    Russo won the heat, with Patterson second. The main event was stopped after a rash of accidents, with Al Gordon declared the winner for a $1,000 purse. The meeting was adjudged a disaster, despite a reported 56,000 (!) crowd, and the track closed for good. :(
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  6. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 784

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    [​IMG]

    And finally (after this site went down for a while :mad:), here's Narragansett Park Speedway in Providence, Rhode Island on a sunny fall afternoon in 1915. Starting a 100-mile race on the concrete speedway are (front row, l-r) Ralph de Palma (Stutz), Ira Vail (Mulford/Duesenberg), Pete Henderson (Duesenberg, almost hidden), Bob Burman (Peugeot - which one, Jim? ;)) and Eddie Rickenbacher (Maxwell). Rick won, Burman second.

    Check the racing motorcycles parked in front of the crowd.
     
  7. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 10,953

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    The last few pages have had some amazing old photos. Man, could I get a way-back machine ride just once to see a board track that huge and a big prize race? Gary
     
  8. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 784

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Not quite sure if this is the Independence Day or Columbus Day meeting in 1928, but #28 is Lou Moore in any case, #3 George Souders or Jimmy Gleason, and #12 Dave Evans or Billy Arnold - all in Miller 91s.
     
  9. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,086

    jimdillon
    Member

    Michael, even though Burman may have had a few dollars if you were serious about racing you had to find a sponsor. I believe Burman still had LC Erbes as his sponsor and there was an article later that confirmed that. Then Erbes ended up with some of the cars later on. Miller may not have been able to buy dinner without rich racing aficianados so you are right in that regard. I believe Erbes paid for the car but that is my theory. What do you believe happened to the 1913 McCarthy car, which had also been acquired by Rick from Kaufman?

    As to the Peugeots that is another story and I have some research on all of that but it has been put away for now and so I am working without a net here.

    As to the Resta Peugeot without digging thru old files, the Motor Age 5/27/1915 at p22 stated "Resta's car was the spare mount at Lyons last year..practically it is as fast as the Mercedes (and they go on to describe engine)...hump on tail cut off..tail is smooth and ordinary." The car that Resta raced successfully in 1915 I believe was the 1914 car. I have some notes on the Peugeots prior to that and without going through old notes I thought I had come up with more than three cars. In any event I still have to give some credence to Rick's autobiography until I come up with proof from that period otherwise. As I stated, I believe more what I read from that period than what some researchers from today. That is not to say that I have great admiration for today's researchers such as yourself and John Printz but I have done a bit of research myself and more than once I have changed my theory and said to myself "how could I miss that". That is why I also believe we may come up with theories but whether they are totally bullet proof I am not sure.

    Michael I still am in the state that there are more questions than answers. Every time I seem to solve one mystery on this whole episode I seem to find another.-Jim
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  10. Michael Ferner
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 784

    Michael Ferner
    Member

    Jim, look at the date: May 27!!! This article obviously describes his Indy mount, which was indeed the Lyon spare car! Resta drove the 1913 model only twice, Vanderbilt and Grand Prize in late February/early March!!

    "Every time I seem to solve one mystery on this whole episode I seem to find another.-Jim"

    That is part of the (masochistic) fun, isn't it? :cool: :eek: :rolleyes: :confused:
     
  11. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,086

    jimdillon
    Member

    Michael you are correct I missed the date but I am supposed to be getting to work here and i am playing with this stuff. You will note I made some changes to my post. Better get to work.

    Rick allegedly got both 1913 cars from Kaufman what happened to the McCarthy mount-where did it go?-Jim
     
  12. You have to position the cursor over the photo and right click and have the picture size options...
     
  13.  
  14. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

     
  15. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Some fan notes from the October 12th race:

    I don't know who to credit for initially posting this photo, but thanks.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,313

    ehdubya
    Member

    Sorry that was my fault, I went to post 24 hours earlier and got a server error and then it went down completely and 24 hrs later I only saw Michael's first reply :eek:



    By some strange coincidence I was just reading this account of the race with no idea it was this photo and Michael was posting (or trying) :D

    I thought the picture there of local star Joe Dickinson's Stutz was the first I'd seen, I've been intrigued since reading a description of it being identical to Weightman's but there it is #11 in the above pic.

    The surface is described as asphaltum in the news
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  17. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 243

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA


    Do official AAA records from the golden era exist? Such as entry forms, car registrations, payroll records, letters & correspondence?
     
  18. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Comes 'close' to matching this lineup in champcarstats:
    Autumn Classic 10-31-25
    http://www.champcarstats.com/races/192509.htm

     
  19. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    Oh boy...
    (I'm almost afraid to start this)
    You've asked quite a question.:)

    The short answer is no. (not in any assembled form)

    The quizical answer is that some are located in a basement at 39 Church St. Boston, MA.

    The long and winding road answer could start here:
    http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=102806&st=0

    Hopefully others will chime in-
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  20. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,086

    jimdillon
    Member

    Michael with the hope that I will not bore everyone to continue with the earlier discussion on the Burman cars, my main focus has always been to try and figure out the early Miller stuff as I am not sure the final chapter has been written on that period. There are others out there more knowledgeable on the Peugeots. I am not sure what Peugeots were racing in late 1914 and early 1915. There were I thought a couple of L76 cars, a couple of L56 cars and then the small L3bis (I believe that is the designation for the 3 liter car?).

    When I think of the Resta Peugeot I think more of the 1914 GP cars and right or wrong am somewhat dismissive of the car he drove as you pointed out twice in the Vanderbilt and Grand Prize in early 1915. From what I have gathered McCarthy was a mechanic for Rickenbacker in late 1914 I think and then at San Diego in early 1915 he drove the second Peugeot entered by Kaufman. After that race I believe McCarthy became Resta's mechanic so I am assuming McCarthy was part of the Kaufman group-strictly an assumption. Even though I believe Miller changed the pistons on the Resta Peugeot (the car he drove twice in early 1915) I am not sure how much this actual car played in the development of the Miller fours. Of course he borrowed some of the principles but with Burman's car he actually cast new blocks etc and probably adapted the valve gear etc, so that Burman car, whatever the genesis, it was somewhat important. I kind of wondered what happened to the McCarthy car and have not come up with any answers-maybe you have.

    Food for thought, The Millers had a 7" stroke which was somewhat rare and can be helpful in tracking down potential Miller fours. The Burman modified Peugeot or whatever you want to call it had a 7.1" stroke which also was somewhat rare and maybe helps identify this motor as it ran later in 1916 or later. In late August 1916 while getting ready for the Labor Day races at Cinci it was reported that Erbes had two mounts he entered. Klein was to drive one and Gable the other. Both had strokes that were 7+". One was claimed to be the car in which Burman met his death and the other was modeled after Burman's car. May give some credence to the cars in the estate. Also Erbes registered another Burman Special in 1916 which had a 449 ci. Could be a Peugeot L76 car but probably was one of the cars he built in 1913 for the Keeton. Still a few mysteries left to be sure-Jim
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  21. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 243

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    Hey Carl, thanks for the link. An interesting thread indeed. It would appear that the bulk of the AAA records made their way to the dumpster well before electricity was invented.

    A few years ago I made inquiries with Donald Davidson at IMS. I was curious if the speedway had records for entry forms, gasoline bills, etc. Mr. Davidson said they had no such records.

    Not too long ago I did stumble across a 1911 Indy 500 registery that was posted on the internet. Evidently some historical documents have survived, and that is what makes research so much fun.

    [​IMG]
     
  22. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    Have you ever gone to a High School Baseball game..... there is always someone taking notes. These "fan notes" show just how really important recording the event was to some.
     
  23. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    [​IMG]

    This turned out to be King Rhiley and this Midwestern Sweepstakes Cup winning racing car. Can anyone add more to his unique story and his win at Pikes Peak?
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2012
  24. gilmore
    Joined: Apr 28, 2009
    Posts: 89

    gilmore
    Member
    from Missouri

    Couldn't tell you who "initially" posted this race summary, but AUTOLIT is Walter Miller's ebay store. I remember he had dozens of these reports listed a few years ago.

    http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=autolit.com
     
    Fronty 1920 likes this.
  25. T-Head,

    John Gerber ran in alot of those midwestern races- do you know what year the pic is from?

    I'll take a look through Gerber's book and see if anything pops up!
     
  26. and the Sprint Car Hall of Fame should have some info as well :)!
     
  27. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,313

    ehdubya
    Member

  28. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    This one was taken in 1920. On The Old Motor we also have a photo of him on his way to winning the Pikes Peak Hill Climb in 1921.
     
  29. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    Oval Tracks: Does anyone out there have a list of them world wide and the year they opened. Is USA in the lead and have the majority?
     
  30. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Hi Charles. I can't help you with alot of information of all oval tracks world wide but i will give you a link to a list compiled by Rob Semmeling of all major and minor races in Austria, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands just after WW1 to the present and also most in the United States such as Indycars. I have been using the website when researching a particular motorcycle race and i must say that it has been a very useful tool. However, i must stress to you that most of the content is motorcycle related although the list includes information for car or voiturette races on road cicuits, hillclimbs and of course ovals and the early velodromes.

    Click here.. http://www.wegcircuits.nl/

    Happy reading.:)
     

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