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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. Offset
    Joined: Nov 9, 2010
    Posts: 1,700

    Offset
    Member
    from Canada

    T-Head thank you for sharing the link to The Old Motor. Fascinating history on this thread.
     
  2. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    Your welcome.....
     
  3. Speedrome
    Joined: Mar 22, 2007
    Posts: 607

    Speedrome
    Member
    from Irving, TX

    Kurtis & Gilmore,

    After reading about the Sunset Club I too wanted an answer so I contacted Donald Davidson. Here is his response.

    Several people have been asking me about the Sunset Club, one person even suggesting it may have been formed to honor the passing of the riding mechanic era in 1937. Nothing so dramatic. It was merely a short-lived, very informal social group made up pretty much of accessory company reps and so forth who liked to tip a few after the track closed each evening. For several years back then, closing time was not 6:00 pm, but rather precisely at sundown, whenever that would happen to fall. A fellow named Freddie Lockwood was one of the ring leaders. He was a PR man for Borg-Warner and is the tiny little fellow occasionally misidentified as Wilbur Shaw in the 1936 shot of Louis Meyer receiving the then brand new Borg-Warner trophy from starter Seth Klein. I met Mr. Lockwood in 1964 and he was quite eager to talk about "the club." While it seems to me they MAY have done a little fund raising, it was basically just a bunch of guys having a good time.

    Bart
     
  4. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,570

    noboD
    Member

    I'm home puking my guts out for some reason and decided to see what's happening here. Jim, I absolutely love your response to Bob's question on louvers. Especially the "short answer" of I don't know. I think you ARE on to something with your long explanation. Maybe Bob could come out of character and look at a post war car we both love in the '65-'66 Corvette. The front louvers are the indented ones, I'm sure for good reason. Bob, it might make your skin crawl, but take a look.
     
  5. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,086

    jimdillon
    Member

    Doug, I realize Bob has such a love for muscle cars and early Vettes so I stayed away from that topic. Truth be told I figured I went on and on enough so I figured I had better end the diatribe. If you really study ducting on modern day aircraft and modern day high speed racecars I would bet you would find NACA ducts for entry and exit of air. The inward design I believe creates less disturbance although there is still engineering design in the ramps etc.

    The Corvettes used the design I am sure to rid the underhood area of unwanted hot air that plagues these cars. On my early Vettes I remake the lower panel that goes under the battery tray to allow more unrestricted air movement. The gills on the Corvettes were correctly done for a reason and even though my auto related sicknesses are racing in the teens and early Corvettes I figured I had better not join the two in this great thread.-Jim
     
  6. gilmore
    Joined: Apr 28, 2009
    Posts: 89

    gilmore
    Member
    from Missouri

    Thanks, Bart. Nice to finally have a 'definite' answer to this question.
     
  7. gilmore
    Joined: Apr 28, 2009
    Posts: 89

    gilmore
    Member
    from Missouri

    OK, now that we know WHAT the 'Sunset Club' was... anybody want to play the NAME GAME?

    I recognize a few others, but cannot think of/remember their names at this moment. Here is what I have...

    1) ?
    2) ?
    3) ?
    4) ?
    5) ?
    6) PETER DEPAOLO
    7) ?
    8) ?
    9) G. H. MACK? (NAME ON CERTIFICATE)
    10) ?
    11) ?
    12) ?
    13) ?
    14) T. E. 'POP' MYERS
    15) ?
    16) ?
    17) ?
    18) ?
    19) ?
    20) ?
    21) ?
    22) WILBUR SHAW
    23) ?
    24) ED WINTERGUST
    25) ?
    26) ?
    27) EDDIE RICKENBACKER
    28) ?
    29) ?
    30) ?
    31) ?
    32) ?
    33) ?
    34) ?
    35) HARRY HARTZ
    36) ?
     

    Attached Files:

  8. simplex2stroke
    Joined: Nov 2, 2010
    Posts: 10

    simplex2stroke
    Member
    from USA

    I'm researching EMF racing history. My particular intrest is EMF's participation in the 1909 and 1911 Las Angeles to Phoenix race (also called the Cactus Derby) and the Santa Monica Road Races. I know that in the 1909 Cactus Derby the EMF car with Harry Lord, Herbert LaCasse and Bert Latham came in third place. In the 1911 race, Lord and LaCasse DNF'd. I do not have much on EMF's Participation in the Santa Monica Road Races, other than EMF raced with, I believe Harry Lord, as the driver. Any additional information and especially photos would be very much appreciated.
    Thanks!
     
  9. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Welcome to the H.A.M.B.

    I took a bit of interest in E-M-F's racing history after i found a small article in the San Francisco Call dated November 16, 1910.{see photo below} Unfortunately i haven't found any results or other information.
    In regards to the company's participation in the Santa Monica Road Races, i only have Bruno Seibel listed as starting 6th and finishing 3rd in the Chandler & Lyon Trophy on 14th October 1911. This was for stock chassis cars up to 230 ci. The only other Santa Monica event where an Harry Lord driven E-M-F could've raced was the Ferris Trophy on 10 July 1909 but Lord is actually listed as finishing 6th in a Studebaker on that day.

    Other races where E-M-F's partipated..

    3rd Stewart Avenue Hillclimb, GA.
    27 March 1909 - The Constitution Cup - 2 E-M-F's entered. 1st, Ernest J. "Daredevil" Jones. The other car not listed.

    Fort George Hillclimb, NY.
    28 April 1909 - Class B Gasoline Cars - 1st, Koehler

    Cumberland Park,TN.
    29 April 1909 - 5 mile race for stock cars - 4th, Suth. E-M-F 30hp and 4th in the 10 mile Free for All.

    Corsicana,TX.
    21st June 1909 - 1/8 Mile Corsicana Motor Company Cup - 3rd, Ben Blackman in a 30hp.

    Rome Driving Park, GA.
    12th July 1909 - event 1 - 2nd, M.B. McWilliams. Event 2 - 2nd, "Daredevil" Jones.

    1st Annual Show and Races of the Amarillo Auto Show Association, TX.
    27th July 1909 - 15 mile Free for All - 1st, Bob Adair and on 29th July he finished 2nd in the 10 miles for 36 hp and over cars and 1st in the 40 mile Free for All.

    Denver Beach, Galveston, TX.
    5th August 1909 - 9 mile Match race - 1st, S.C.Jewel.

    Kansas State Fairgrounds, Hutchinson, KS.
    18th September 1909 - 1 Mile Free for All - 1st, George Wiles and 1st in the 5 mile and 1 mile.

    Rome Driving park, GA.
    26-27th October 1909.
    "Daredevil" Jones finished 1st in both 5 mile races on the 26th. Ist in a 3 mile and a 5 mile race the next day and 2nd in a 5 mile Free for All.

    Atlanta Motordrome,GA.
    9-12th November 1909 - 10 Miles for stock chassis - 6th, "Daredevil" Jones, 7th, Yaeger. On the 9th 10 Miles Free for All 'Daredevil' finished 13th and Yaeger 14th respectively.

    Harrisburg Track, Houston,TX.
    27th November 1909 - Barney Oldfield Silver Plate Trophy - I Mile Time Trial for amatuers - 3rd, R.Watson in a 30hp.

    Atlanta Speedway,GA.
    5-6th May 1910 - Cohen finished 3rd in the 10 Mile race for stock chassis.

    Red Oak Fairgrounds,IO
    16th June 1910 - 15 Mile Free for All - an E-M-F finished 2nd and ? Robbins raced in the 10 mile race.

    Winfield Fairgrounds,KS.
    1st July 1910 - Lloyd Haight drove a 30hp in the 3 and 5 mile races finishing 2nd in both.

    Churchill Downs, Louisville, KY.
    8th July 1910 - 5 miles - Harry Endicott retired his E-M-F.

    Latonia,OH.
    10 July 1910 - Harry Endicott retired again in a 5 mile race for stock chassis {161-230 ci} but finished 2nd in the 10 mile.

    Atlanta Speedway,GA.
    30th July 1910 - 8 Mile Open for cars running 161-230 ci. 1st, Henry Cohen and finished 2nd in a later race combining cars with engines 161 ci and under and 161-230ci. cars.

    Toledo,OH.
    17th September 1910 - 2 Mile Handicap - Jacob Meisinger in a 30hp beat th e Benz of Barney Oldfield.

    San Angelo Fairgrounds,TX.
    5-7th October 1910 - Carl reeves finished 2nd in a 5 Mile Handicap. He also raced at Amarillo,TX on the 10-12th October where he was quite successful in a number of races.

    Kansas City Fairgrounds,KS
    19th October 1910 - George C. Wiles finished 2nd in the 5 and 10 mile for stock cars.

    Atlanta Speedway,GA.
    3-7th November 1910 - George De Witt beat Mortimer Roberts and Montague Roberts in a 12 mile race for stock chassis up to 161-230 ci.
    F.A.Whitt was 1st in the 10 mile for cars up to 101-161 ci.

    1910 Tiedeman Trophy, Savannah, GA.
    11th November 1910 - #45 E-M-F driven by F.A.Witt finished 2nd and the #41 of Harry Cohen retired.

    Los Angeles Motordrome, Playa del Rey,CA.
    8-9th April 1911 - 24 Hour Race Free for All - W.J.Lacass and Harvey Perry retired early.

    Oshkosh Driving Park,WI.
    4th July 1911 - An E-M-F entered by the Thom Automobile Company and driven by "Stormy" Doemel finished 1st in the 10 Mile City championship race.

    NY State Fairgrounds,Syracuse,NY.
    16th September 1911 - Jack tower finished 3rd in a 5 mile race.

    Guttenberg,NJ.
    30th September 1911 - Jack Tower defeated Ralph DePalma in a Class E, 5 mile race for stock chassis cars with 301 ci. and under.

    Santa Ana,CA.
    Bert Shindeldecker finished first on 23rd June 1911.

    Old Orchard beach, ME.
    4-6th July 1911 - On the 5th, Billy Burke in an E-M-F defeated John DePalma.

    Brighton Beach,NY.
    7th September 1911 - Billy Burke rolled his car and was subsequently injured in a 40 Mile race against Bob Burman.

    1911 Tiedeman Trophy. Savannah, GA.
    27th November 1911 -
    1st, #35 Frank Witt - E.M.F
    2nd, #34 Robert Evans - E.M.F
    3rd #33 Jack Tower - E.M.F

    Janesville Driving Park,WI.
    4th July 1913 - John Mahan finished 1st in a 25 Mile race.
     

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  10. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Many thanks Bart.
     
  11. simplex2stroke
    Joined: Nov 2, 2010
    Posts: 10

    simplex2stroke
    Member
    from USA

    Thanks for the info Kurtis. Good info to add to my list. I've seen some listings for Studebaker being the make, when it was an EMF actually racing. Studebaker had the sales and marketing for EMF production. There were a lot more EMF's racing than I had imagined.
    Attached (I think), are photos of two of the cars that raced for the Tiedeman Trophy at Savannah.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,935

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    [​IMG]

    We have run into quite a bit of information on The Frayer-Miller and have been posting it on theoldmotor.com It turns out to be a quite interesting car and we will be adding more about it soon.
     
  13. ZigZagZ
    Joined: Oct 24, 2011
    Posts: 243

    ZigZagZ
    Member
    from LA

    I found a film clip earlier today while surfing the web. It is from a 1913 movie entitlrd "Speed kings". It features Earl Cooper in a Stutz, and also has an appearance by Fatty Arbuckle.

    http://archive.org/details/TheSpeedKings_1913
     
  14. Wonderful find there Zig-Zag and thanks for sharing.

    I cannot think of an earlier example of car-mounted camera footage...considering how massive movie cameras were in 1913, that must have a been quite the undertaking.

    Where have I seen that villain before? He looks familiar...and hilarious too.
     
  15. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

  16. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 6,021

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

  17. Banjeaux Bob...Thanks for sharing-I'm guessing that is Peter DePaolo in the yellow Duesenberg at Baltimore-Washington Speedway in Laurel MD.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2012
  18. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    This must have been taken at the July Inaugural race -I remember reading somewhere that workmen were still pounding nails as the race began.

    And it appears Pete returned a week later with disc wheels:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/31787369@N07/3290820896/in/photostream
     
  19. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 6,021

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    I just borrowed the image from elsewhere.No explanation from the source.

    Here is an Auto Union Type C
    Grossglockner 1938
    image vie Stefan Marjoram
     

    Attached Files:

  20. carl s
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 741

    carl s
    Member
    from Indio, CA

    [​IMG]
    excerpts from Wall Smacker Peter DePaolo 1935

    "Next we went to Laurel for the inaugural-on arriving noticed many other drivers sitting on pit wall and not out practicing."
    "Turned a few slow laps on apron then moved up to center and poured it to her-found out why the other boys not driving."
    "Car began to act crazy and went into a peculiar '45 slide' on verge of looping so drove faster and got worse."
    "No wonder the other drivers were lined up like a flock of sparrows on the rail to watch me crack up."
    "I couldn't let them see me defeated by the track so I tried wide open throttle after going to the top rail."
    "It worked very well, I led most of the race and won by almost a lap."
    "It was a terribly hot day-108f-
    "Benny Hill, Earl Cooper, Jerry Wonderlich and a few others ran some laps then came in and quit."
    'Earl Devore-towards the end of the race-made a very dangerous pass and almost caused a wreck - he seemed crazy from the heat.-we poured buckets of water over his head after the race."
     
  21. saacha
    Joined: Mar 20, 2011
    Posts: 161

    saacha
    Member
    from cloud 9

    This is one of three 1908 Mors French GP cars. Here is one happly racing in Argentina 1910 "Campeonato del Kilometro" driven by J. Chapás who managed 2nd place in the event, so sayeth the reverse iscription of the original print. Belive it was 120hp 12,8 lts.
     

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  22. anyone got a few quid to spare?

    I always found this particular design to be the melding of 2 eras in GP car construction, the end of the bucket seats and bolster tanks and the beginning of the integrated bodies. The two styles so distinctly represented here. Of course it doesnt hurt that the car is fast too.

    http://www.fiskens.com/pages/showroom/model.aspx?pid=1563

    [​IMG]
     
  23. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 6,021

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Fiskens? Only a few quid.I didn't even have to look at the link! Nice car though.

    Doug,how are you doing?
     
  24. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,086

    jimdillon
    Member

    Doug pretty cool car although George Wingard may raise an eyebrow or two over their claim of the most original and complete pre 1912 GP car. I thought George's 1908 Mercedes was pretty original in terms of equipment. Still like the car though.-Jim
     
  25. There is no price...though my father and i mused that if we hocked everything we might be able to scratch enough up to ge it, maybe a 5 for 1 trade, and throw in a Roller just to up the ante.

    Almost want to call and ask what the damage would be. I remember the Garros Bug sold years back for 325k, and 35Js routinely break the 750 to 1 million, but has anything with this level of historical providence in the pre-ww1 era of GP cars traded hands lately to get a price gauge?

    I am bouncing along these days, almost done with another semester in the master pogrom, 1 year to go.

    Scored a mag to rebuild for the Stevens, hope to get that done and installed here soon. Was staring at the old FIAT race car body remains back home and dreaming.
     
  26. Think he has a few cars that would fit that bill...
     
  27. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,960

    The37Kid
    Member

    Even if I did win Lotto, I'd pass on that 1908 GP car, just not a looker IMO, and I don't care how fast or historic it may be, a 1908 Mercedes, now that is a Race Car!Bob
     
  28. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 6,021

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Auto Union - Avus 1937 . image Stefan Marjoram
     

    Attached Files:

  29. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,313

    ehdubya
    Member

    Carl these are all supposed to be 18th July and they appear to wheel covers...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    According to DePaolo, after the 1924 race, during the victory celebration he asked Duesenberg, “ ‘Daddy, could I have a supercharger?’ He was so happy about Boyer winning and me coming in sixth he said, ‘Kiddo, you can have the factory.’ So, in 1925, I got the supercharger…”

    http://www.taurtoisemotorsports.com/twenties/Daddy.html
     
  30. I agree, not much of a looker, but it is the effectiveness of it. Brutal effeciency and purposeful look. Probably why I like the '12 GP Peugot over the '13.
     

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