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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    A couple more for Keith.

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  2. model.A.keith
    Joined: Mar 19, 2007
    Posts: 6,279

    model.A.keith
    Member

    Kurtis,

    Thanks

    Prescott and Shelsley

    Anymore ??

    Keith
     
  3. Gfaules
    Joined: Nov 11, 2007
    Posts: 98

    Gfaules
    Member
    from California

  4. LeeStohr
    Joined: Oct 21, 2009
    Posts: 108

    LeeStohr
    Member
    from Virginia

    Walter Christie used radiators very much like the Renault above. Unfortunately he continued to use them until 1909; by then they probably couldn't handle the horsepower.
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  5. plym49
    Joined: Aug 9, 2008
    Posts: 2,797

    plym49
    Member
    from Earth

    How were the rear ends of these chain-driven cars set up? Was there a differential? Was the rear axle solidly mounted (we worry about articulation when running split rods; what's it like trying to keep two chains aligned?)?
     
  6. model.A.keith
    Joined: Mar 19, 2007
    Posts: 6,279

    model.A.keith
    Member


    Kurtis,

    Found a couple of more recent shots of R4D

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    Always plenty of willing hands to push a 'legend'

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    Keith

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  7. model.A.keith
    Joined: Mar 19, 2007
    Posts: 6,279

    model.A.keith
    Member

    Chain drive was a popular power transmission system from the earliest days of the automobile. It gained prominence as an alternative to the Système Panhard with its rigid Hotchkiss driveshaft and universal joints.
    A chain drive system uses one or more roller chain to transmit power from a differential to the rear axle. This system allowed for a great deal of vertical axle movement (for example, over bumps), and was simpler to design and build than a rigid driveshaft in a workable suspension. Also, it had less unsprung weight at the rear wheels than the Hotchkiss drive, which would have had the weight of the driveshaft to carry as well, which in turn meant that the tires would last longer.
    Frazer Nash were strong proponents of this system using one chain per gear selected by dog clutches. The chain Frazer Nash chain drive system, (designed for the GN Cyclecar Company by Archibald Frazer-Nash and Henry Ronald Godfrey) was very effective, allowing extremely fast gear selections. The Frazer Nash (or GN) transmission system provided the basis for many "special" racing cars of the 1920s and 1930s, the most famous being Basil Davenport's Spider which held the outright record at the Shelsley Walsh Speed Hill Climb in the 1920s. Frazer Nash cars are still raced in the UK.
    Parry-Thomas was killed during a land speed record attempt in his car 'Babs' when the chain final-drive broke, decapitating him.
    The last popular chain drive automobile was the Honda S600 of the 1960s.


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    Spider II


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  8. model.A.keith
    Joined: Mar 19, 2007
    Posts: 6,279

    model.A.keith
    Member


    Another 'boiler'

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    Last edited: Oct 23, 2009
  9. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,525

    noboD
    Member

    The BMW Isetta 300 has chain drive as well.
     
  10. Would anyone have more pics of the '05 Renault- this thing just gets me going!

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  11. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Keith,

    Thanks for all the wonderful links to the ERA.

    Interesting how the R1A came to be. Also of note is the many contractors associated with the marque. I know the history of Malcolm Campbell's 'Bluebird' project and those who helped build it, namely Railton and George and Jack Gray, the two panelbeating brothers but i didn't know they also had their hands on this particular cars inception and the many that came later.

    These amazing cars are the European equivalent to a Miller, maybe even better. What a great thread.

    Cheers.

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  12. It would be a far stretch to compare ERA to Miller, just 2 completely different worlds. But no doubt that ERA's were well done and performed remarkedly well. Raymond May's, Peter Berthon, Murray Jamieson were all very talented guys and in thier own way produced a very competitive car. In terms of assembly and fit, finish and sheer power, Miller is artwork and no comparison. Also ERA's heyday is almost 10 years after Millers.

    good run down on English Racing Automobiles:

    http://members.madasafish.com/~d_hodgkinson/ERAcars.htm
     
  13. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,079

    jimdillon
    Member

    Doug, although I have never heard of such a car it is quite interesting. Raises a lot of questions though. First the name with Elgin a dirt road course and then board track racer don't seem to go together or so it seems to me. Then the year throws me as there were not any European cars built during 1917 as they were in the throws of war. Even in the states I am not familiar with any cars built in 1917 as much of our manufacturing effort went to our involvement in the conflict and the racing schedule was quite limited.

    The hood is very European with the carburetor adjustment hole and the shape does have the appearance similar to Peugeot. It also has a 3 liter inline six which I would like to know more about. Although Peugeot had played with the 3 liter limitation prior to the 1920 rule change (OHC four though) there were not an abundance of 3 liter powerplants, especially inline 6 on our side of the pond. Then the color chosen is French blue, not bad just wondering if there was any history to the car.

    If the car has any real history I would surely be interested in it. After spending years researching this era it is always fun to find another blind alley to take a trip down.

    In spite of all of the above I would surely like to park it in my barn-Jim
     
  14. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

  15. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    OK. Maybe they are the British equivalent.

    ARTHUR DOBSON. ERA R7B


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  16. well, I shot the owner an email, hopefully he responds with some more info and pictures. It is a pretty good copy of the premiers...also wonder what the engine is.
     
  17. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,079

    jimdillon
    Member

    Kurtis you may have a point that it may have something to do with the Elgin Motor Car Co-I was thinking racecar being built during this time (not real likely -at least not by any of the bigger names) but it could have been a modified "stocker"-duh. I see Elgin built some cars during this era. On a quick search I found some references. Here is a picture of a 1917 and also a 35hp Elgin 180 (3 liter) six OHV-engine allegedly built by the Falls Motor Co. Falls could have built a modified go fast engine I suppose. I am quite sure they built a Falls 8 racer and there is a Falls racer from the early twenties I believe vintage races (I spoke to the owner at Laguna Seca in 2005)-somewhere I have some info on the racer they built-not much just a blurb in an article ( I believe they called it the Falls Indy 8-if my memory is still working).

    Be interesting what the owner says. In my quick search, I see one of the surviving 1918 Elgin toruing cars that needed TLC ended up being shipped to England- I wonder if someone took a few liberties-not that it would bother me mind you-Jim

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  18. model.A.keith
    Joined: Mar 19, 2007
    Posts: 6,279

    model.A.keith
    Member


    Can't say i've seen that can at any of the VSCC events i've been to....

    time to dig through a few old programmes.

    I see it's in Northants thats only a few hours away from me maybe i should go and take it for a test drive .:eek:


    Thanks for the link

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    Keith
     
  19. plym49
    Joined: Aug 9, 2008
    Posts: 2,797

    plym49
    Member
    from Earth

    Thanks for the info. Now how did they handle articulation? Seems it would bind things up pretty good, or force the chain off a sprocket.
     
  20. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Jim,
    You could be right. All of the searches i came across only mentions the Elgin in endurance runs and smaller races of small significance, even racing against a train. Two things ran through my mind when looking at the picture of the car in question were the year and the LHD steering.
    The final year of the Elgin National Trophy before war broke out was 1916. Whether this car competed is not known. The owner mentions this as a boardtrack racer but again nothing is written in any results at the time although it sure does have the body of a board racer and not something one would typically find on a bumpy road course. I guess it could be one of the many cars built by amatuer racers of that time. And yes, i too wouldn't mind having something like that in my garage.

    BTW. In reference to the Falls-Eight you mentioned, was it common for some manufacturers to build engines for other companies?

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  21. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,079

    jimdillon
    Member

    Kurtis, yes it was somewhat common. Take for instance the Dodge Brothers built many of the engines for the Ford Ts. Herschel Spillman built engines for a number of manufacturers, and I am sure there are many others.

    From what I saw Elgin was building pretty mundane engines (24hp) and the fast production cars should have been closer to 50hp. Maybe the Falls was a faster powerplant although I have not seen any reference to them racing during this era (before the Falls Indy 8-built I believe in 1919 and raced in 1920 onward-going strictly onmemory here). If this car was a board track racer I would be curious to see what tracks it ran. At some of the tracks they did run some races with "stock" cars such as the Ford races so this car may have been suited to that part of the racing program. Some of these Ford racers were bodied quite well-very simimlar to the big boys-Harvey who later drove the reconstructed Burman Peugeot drove a Ford with pinstripe that was even a copy of the Peugeot. I am not aware of any stock cars that could keep up with all of the OHC cam cars that were tearing up the wooden tracks. It may be somewhere in my records but if it is it surely is not ringing any bells in my bellfry-Jim

    BTW. In reference to the Falls-Eight you mentioned, was it common for some manufacturers to build engines for other companies?

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  22. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Mac,

    Some more pics of the '05 Renault as requested.

    *NOTE*.. The underslung chassis and cooling problems were just some of the problems encounted with this car, most notably at the Gordon Bennett Cup race and ultimately Renault reverted to his original design for future competition.

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  23. Lee, you still in the FF business?
     
  24. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Picture for banjeaux bob.

    1924 GP ACF. at Lyon.
    Louis Zborowski {MILLER} & Henry Seagrave {SUNBEAM}

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    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
  25. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,989

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Mac,

    I'm yet to find out the inspiration for the streamlining on the '05 Renault, i think it was called the 'alligator', but i wonder if it was copied from the 1902 'Easter Egg' steam car.

    Just wondering.


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  26. LeeStohr
    Joined: Oct 21, 2009
    Posts: 108

    LeeStohr
    Member
    from Virginia

    exwestracer, I moved on to D Sports Racers and had some success. Not doing much right now.

    I can't find any mention of an Elgin car in Darren Galpins massive 'Record of Motorsport'.

    Lee
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2009
  27. model.A.keith
    Joined: Mar 19, 2007
    Posts: 6,279

    model.A.keith
    Member

    so over coffee (at work) I trawled the net again, came upon these postcards,


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    Keith.

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  28. Slim Pickens
    Joined: Dec 15, 2008
    Posts: 3,342

    Slim Pickens
    Member

    Kurtis,

    mentioned earlier.....and Walter White again but without a front tire after a blowout on the first lap and ironically in front of the Vanderbilt estate. Where was this. Upstate NY?
     

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