Adhesives vs. Welding for floor pans

I used period correct rusty flathead screws and a piece cut from an old garbage can (just like Grandad).

 

Glues are for plastic model cars or new plastic cars. Welding is for steel..

Jus kidding.. Do what ever u see fit.. There seems to be great reviews on the product your inquiring about . Give it a whirl and post a review.. But honestly Id jus weld it because its fun to me..

 

What kind of car are you building that the body is so perfect it has never had any welding on it?
It can't be '20's or 30's cars,unless you have a time machine.
And when this car does need body work,you're telling me you're going to "glue" a patch on it?
I'm hand builing a '27 roadster body.I guess I really screwed up when I welded it together instead of "gluing".
I don't think I'll "step away from my welder" any time soon.

 

is that a cam bumper? different for sure.

 

Adhesives have a place in our hobby. Unfortunately, too many people try to do things the way that they were done 50 years ago. Technology has come a long way in 50 years. I've seen panel bond hold long after the sheet metal it was holding together came apart. Adhesives are the "new technology". Wrap your head around it now because in 20 years it will be the "old" way of doing things.

Having said all of that, I personally, stilll prefer to weld things.

 

If you are working on a box section on a vehicle that you plan to keep forever, and that will be exposed to the elements and road salt, it would seem an advantage to be able to properly finish the inner surfaces of the box section with POR or whatever and then bond it closed, perhaps with some blind steel rivets.

Would one of you professional body people do a tech article on properly attaching a repair panel without welding?

 

someone mentioned using it for seam sealer, anyone tried it for sealing small body holes? my floor pans are fine but have some extra old fastener holes, and it's impractical to weld them, when they can be sealed. structure is fine.

 

That would seem a perfect fix. We gotta learn more about what these products can do.

 

yea car is on ramps in a hundred year old wooden garage, and I don't have the current capability to run a welder out there, I don't do anything with sparks in there if I can help it. try to grind everything outside, plus the original undercoating is intact and is fine.

 

Man...what a thread! LoL

MY concern with using glue (and I use it on a regular basis as a Body Tech) isn't so much with if its better or worse than welding.
It's simply that its so easy for "Regular Joe" to MISUSE it and end up with an unsafe car.

I know...you can do the same thing with a welder...but I think someone who has purchased a welder and wants to do this type of work is at least committed to the procedure.
He has a fairly large monetary investment made and obviously has a willingness to learn due to that investment.

"Joe", with his rented Caulking Gun in hand, is only committed to getting the job done as guickly and cheaply as possible.
THATS a recipe for disaster!

I can easily imagine guys glueing in replacement unibody frame rails and other structural parts with their trusty glue gun...or expecting the new floor pans to bond firmly to the remnants of paint, sealer and rust he didn't bother to remove from the old floor pans before he glued in the shiny new ones!

Theres no end to the way glue can be misused...
I mean...WHY take a chance to warp a rear axle housing when you can glue a set of spring pads on?
Why not? "It's stronger than the metal it bonds!"
Says so right on the package!!!

T-Time...your entitled to your opinion on welding or anything else for that matter...but after over 30 years as a bodyman/car nut, I'll take my chances in dealing with the potential "damage" I cause as I weld repair rusted areas etc.
Can't be any worse than the gaping hole that was there to start with! LoL

I LIKE the idea of using glues in door skin installs and stuff like that because I can SEAL the crimped area so well as the glue gets squished out as the flange gets closed.
MUCH better than the old way of flanging and tacking...which leaves a perfect moisture trap for rust to start.

If your "old School" enough to dismiss ALL use of glue as non-traditional, you might as well hang up your MIG welder helmet as well...because thats new tech too.
But to suggest glue as a viable REPLACEMENT for all types of weld joints?

THAT needs a rethink...

 

I just hope this thread doesn't get closed, some very interesting technical points here,

 

That sums it up well. It may not have been T-Times intent...but honestly, it is how the post came across...

Regardless, still an interesting thread!

 

Yeah...I have to agree with the time frame.
I SHOULD have said that "compact, affordable home use" MIG welders are fairly new tech...but I'm all tuckered out from parts hunting today and got lazy! LOL

 

Glues are not designed to patch panels with period. They are designed for panel replacement on late model cars where the glue is applied to the edges of panels at attachment points. Anyone advocating making patches with glue in the middle of a panel as a better method of repair over a butt welded seam has no idea how they work. You will see that repair every time as the glues do not expand and contract at anywhere near the same rate as the metal and the repair will eventually map in ever instance.

Even in the collision industry where speed and ease of repair are paramount patches are done with a welder and not glues structural or not.

For the OP gluing in floors may work but as mentioned the twisting forces that they may be put under from body flex may eventually crack the adhesive over time. Modern cars are designed for panel to be glued in and that type of thing is taken into consideration in their design not so with older cars.

 

O.K., let's have an example here. Suppose one was bent on using the glue for a lower cowl patch panel. Say 4" up, and 10" front to back.

Personally, I would weld this in, fitting it first, then butt welding the panel in whilst hammer-welding.
(oxy-acet here, normalizing the welds)

How would one apply this glue in this instance? Would the patch panel have to be braked/relieved the thickness of the sheet metal to have a surface to glue to? I hope it doesn't utilize a 'patch' behind the seam where the two sheets are 'butted'.

Can anyone explain procedure here? I build model airplanes, but the Control Line Racers stay in the hobby shop, and the hot rods are in the garage. And in the other driveway. And in the back yard...the glue stays in the hobby shop, so far.....

 

It would be done either of the two ways you suggested. Either flanging one panel or using a backer and that is the reason the will show every time because you have two layers of metal held together by a material that will react to heat and cold in a completely different manner that the materials it is bonding. This is the reason it is never done this way in collision shops even though it would be way faster than welding. Problem is the repair would come back 99% of the time if fixed this way.

 

Why not both?

Weld bonding

Security of welded , corrosion protection and complete sealing of adhesive bonding

Of course, the cost of the STRSW equipment would be prohibitive for the hobbiest.

Wouldn't "true" traditional call for spot (not plug) welding, making the argument moot?

 

Wow. Holy "over-react" Batman!
Why don't you just log off for a day or two and think it over a bit first?
Your being rash...

Ribbedroof That weld bonding you mentioned...
How does that work. First I've heard of it.
Does the adhesive have some way to survive the welding process or is it applied after the welding and creep into the seam to add strength?
I can see something like that (weld bonding) being really useful to strengthen areas without adding extra metal.
Is that the process Ford started using on the later 5.0 Mustangs to help prevent cowl shake???

 

How was anybody cyberbulling you? You made a post that came across as very condesending and know it allish, somebody questioned you about your views, you didn't like it and suggested they you knew better because you know about structural engineering and then when that got questioned you took your ball and went home.

 

Well it is as I followed the whole thing but your probably right best we leave it at that.

 

I picked a hell of a day to quit sniffing glue.

FWIW, I did not read your original post to imply that welding was bad or that you should glue structural items together.

I took it to mean that if you were fixing a non-structural sheet metal problem, like a rusty lower quarter panel, that you could bond it in place without welding and potentially warping the panel.

C'mon guys, be fair, just about every thread or article you read on welding sheet metal says 'little at a time' or 'jump around' or whatever so you don't 'warp the panel'. The same thing goes for articles or threads about working sheet metal, whether stretching or shrinking.

Hell, Eastwood, who I have little use for, sells a metal bonding system for exactly these types of repairs.

The way technology moves, maybe in 111 years we will be gluing nuclear subs together. For now, I would like to learn more about the option to bond instead of welding, and it is not because I don't know how to weld, it is that I always worry about rust and we all know that in certain welded repairs you cannot really access the back.

 

OOPS,, didnt mean to run you off Dude. Just not going to let someone without working knowledge mislead other untrained folks down the wrong path.

If your determined to delete all your post and leave,, Groovy, have a nice day.

And I get it T_Time, everyday when I fire up my welder. Doing irrepairable damage to everything I touch. Everything I touch, yep thats me.

 

The problem is even if this is what he meant this is not what adhesives are designed to do and the repair will show through the paint every time you repair something this way so it is bad information to be passing along to someone looking to do a repair. Eastwood may sell it to do these types of repairs but it is a very poor way to do it.

 

Short version is that adhesive is applied to the joint before fit-up, then spot welded through using STRSW equipment.

It's use is very common in late-model vehicle construction for the reasons you mentioned...increased strength and structural stiffness.

Not really practical for the average homebuilder, and I doubt many rod builders could see the equipment as cost-effective. Collision shops are moving towards it as it more closely replicates the OE manufacturing process, which in the day of $70K Lexus daily-drivers, is turning into a big deal as it relates to percieved diminished value post-repair.

I believe Goodmark's shop also is STRSW'ing their work where applicable.

 

i have cut apart a few newer cars that have been glued together and the seams always seemed wide, like one inch wide, the rocker panels on an older car might have 1/4" seams, i dont think thats enough contact, you wouldn't butt glue a panel together, so there must be a minimum amount of over lap required to give the right amount of strength, having said all this there is also the question of what happens in an accident, cars that were designed to be welded together get glued is asking to get your ass in alot of trouble, i have had a motor vehicle inspection licence and would i pass a car glued together that should of been welded, no way, no one in there right mind would.

 

And if you read my previous posts I covered that and said that yes it would probably work but as I believe you mentioned the flexing my result in some problems.

The poster I quoted above suggested that you meant otherwise which I never confirmed or denied it although you did mention in another post that you would patch a quarter panel with adhesive which results in problems down the road once a vehicle is painted.

No offense but if you want to continue arguing your point maybe you should have left up your original posts so that everyone is aware of what you posted this afternoon.

 

That makes a lot of sense.
It would be like gluing a windshield in where the OEM windshield was held by a rubber gasket. Without the proper amount of overlap between the glass and pinchweld it would be unlikely the glass would remain glued and watertight over the long term.
Without the flange being large enough to spread the load in a metal glue joint, separation would eventually occur there too...or at least be more likely to occur.

 

i was just using frenching 54 chevy taillights as an example...the reason i would use this stuff is because the bezels are potmetal and can't be welding, therefore i was wondering if these adhesives would be the way to go...or just do it the right way and fab a weldable "bezel" out of sheetmetal.

 

T...when you delete your 2000 posts...start with the last few in this thread will ya.
By deleting your first posts that started all this, you have made any argument you have NOW a total waste of your own time...not to mention ours.

This is/was/could have been a good thread....but guys...its just totally derailed now.
I'm over and out...

 

answer for op. i have used the 3m adhesives for years now on o.e specified repairs and liked the workability and strength it provided. that said i also used it for a few years on dirt track stock cars. there too i liked the speed of work and strength. those cars took alot of abuse and not once did it rip a seam. ripped alot of metal apart over the years but not one seam. i ground both pieces with 36 grit and flanged with a half inch flanger. run a small bead on both and cleco-ed together. once dry i would buff off the excess and fill in the cleco holes, prime, paint and head to the track. would i do it on my hot rod? no. strength should be fine with plenty of overlap on your floor boards. good luck. and let us know how it works for you.