Technical A Frontenac Mystery

Hi All.......I posted a Thread on the Ozrodders Forum in Australia to see if any info in known down here about the "Mystery of the Radiator" after reading the story in Jalopy Journal & have also posted your Thread on our Site as well......so far there has been a few responses.

http://www.ozrodders.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=332498#332498

 

I may be an idiot after all! Just turned to the photos from the 1922 INDY 500 and got this photo in the Fox INDY 500 book.

 

When you're in town to visit the archives, pay respects to Gaston & his family, they rest a couple miles SE of the speedway. Karma can be a weird thing, who knows how it'll come back.

 

I used to take my Fox INDY 500 book to events to get old INDY drivers to autograph it under the photo of their car. Only two non INDY drivers ever signed it, Emory Collins and Harry Robtoy.

 

Dennis, I think that contacting the Indy Museum is a good idea. I am not sure who to contact. I spoke to several people 20 years ago but my memory as to who is not good. If they had an original picture it woudl be helpful.

A couple of questions-- Gaston's car was a Monroe and although was the same as the Frontenac I am not sure they would put any Frontenac emblems on it. The engines were even referred to as Monroes. The sponsorship of the Monroes was a big deal and Cheverolet was most careful in how he referred to them. The only cars I have ever seen with the Frontenac emblems were the Ford Fronties-has anyone seen a Frontenac emblem on any of the Frontenacs from 1915-1922?? I also wonder whether they would put a radiator core and a shell under the flower pedal front. Putting a shell over a shell does not make sense especially when clearance and weight may be issues. The width and height seems to be a couple of inches too small. The area between the frame horns seems to be a bit wider than this radiator and the height from centerline of the crank to the base of the radiator cap seems to be a couple of inches taller. The pictures I have scaled though on not drrect frontal shots so my measurements may be off.

I have the Fox book but blowing up that photo is pretty useless at least my copy. I have blown up hundreds of these old photos but that one is pretty washed out to begin with. That is why it may be wise to contact the Museum and get a nice clear copy.

The shape is close but the bottom portion with the bell curve is not all that earth shattering and Chevrolet may have done other cars later out of habit and felt it was a strong and compact design. Other cars had a dip in this cross member for the crank, although Chev's shape may be unique-who knows.

I looked thru Fox's other book on Sprint car racing but came up dry there as well. Hopefully someone has other photos of the twenties with Fronties showing this emblem and similar designs

Bob what do you feel the other pic from Fox;'s Indy book shows?

There are other photos in Wallen's Board Track book that show the 20/21 cars including one with just a standard radiator (no flower pedal front) and it didn't shed any light on the topic either. Still a good mystery-Jim

 

Some were someone has an album of photos that will solve this question. The cars look so advanced for the day that you would think there were more features on them in books and magazines.

 

Thanks Jim,.... in the previous post that shows a close up of the flower pedal nose, it looks like you can see the bright edge of what appears to be a standard grill shell at the side of the radiator.


And I just got off the phone with the Museum,.. they said they will be looking into it with there photo library,... (they told me to completely digitalizes there images would take about another 40 years) He was aware of the Fox picture and wasn't sure if it was his or theres,... so the mystery continues.....

The one thing that keeps me coming back to this picture (with a thin thread of hope) is the similarities in shape, bracket placement and especially the damage,... all these things put together along with the Frontenac logo seem like a big coincidence,... IMHO.

 

Dennis, When you look at the photo of your shell there looks to be a dot of solder on the neck, a few inched below the cap. Does it look like the aero shell may have attached with it, or was it an anti rub cussion?

 

I am not really sure what it was,.... but whatever it was it was cut off, attached is a close up picture, I will take a close look at that tomorrow to get a better handle of exactly where it goes,..... also here is a link to a bunch of close up and detail pictures of it,.....


http://s216.photobucket.com/albums/cc76/HarmsWay1932/1935 Ford 5 Window/

 

That plug could have been part of a plate or ?? for attachment of a stone guard, possibly.-here is the 299 with a stone guard on it and if you look closely it attaches in the same location (there is a boss with two screws)-Jim

 

A little update and some new-old information

There are a few people that believe this radiator is very possibly the radiator seen in the wreck picture in the pits at Indy,.. however there is some discussion as to who's car that is,... very possibly Louis Chevrolet's car,..... the search of more photo evidence continues, but here is some general information we do know.


There were seven (7) Frontenac cars in the 1920 Indy race,... 4 ran as Monroe-Frontenac, 3 ran as Frontenac's.


(1) Gaston Chevrolet,..Car# 4 Frontenac/Monroe,...Winner

(2) Joe Thomas,.........Car# 28 Frontenac/Monroe,...8th. place

(3) Joe Boyer,............Car# 6 Frontenac,...out, accident lap 192

(4) Bennett Hill,..........Car# 7 Frontenac,...out, accident lap 115

(5) Louis Chevrolet,.....Car# 3 Frontenac/Monroe,.out, steering/accident lap 94

(6) Rosco Sarles,.........Car# 5 Frontenac/Monroe,...out,accident lap 58

(7) Art Klein,...............Car# 8 Frontenac,...out, accident lap 40

 

Whoa... great looking thread! No time to read now...

Check out Fuerza Libre, 1919- 1942 if you guys haven't seen it. Good stuff!

 

We have built a replica racing version of Gaston's no 4 compliant with FIA /CAMS racing requirements in Australia which required a few safety items including proper brakes and lights, to enable the vehicles use in Tarmac Rallies. Yes we actually race it.

Our research with the help of the Indy Museum and a US Fronty Historian gave us a great deal of info on the fronty race cars of 1920. The radiator cap matches those in the close up photos provided by the museum and the configuration would be close. You never got to see a badge due to the daisy petal cowl used for aerodynamics (yes in 1920!) on the Fronty's. So it is confusing to most who look at the shell.

I would like some closer photo's of the badge and shell for our history.

From memory, I think there was only one car that ran a motometer in the radiator cap - the remains of one appears on the cap in your photo. From memory this car had disc wheels which should make it easy to find. The museum has all the entry photos and will be able to identify this car.

Fronty Racer

 

Yet another amazing American racing history post. Keep the info flowing!

 

Thank you for your post FrontyRacer, welcome to the HAMB. Interesting note about the Motometer, I checked the 1920 lineup in the Fox book. None of the Fronty or Monroe cars ran one in the race,BUT after all this time I just found out the wreck photo we have been looking at all this time happened in practice! Another interesting fact was that all the Frontys were painted red and the Monroes were green, time to start looking for original paint on that shell.

 

frontyracer,

PLEASE start a thread about your build- would love to find out more info!!!

 

I knew about the wreck and apparently they had it racing again the next day.
The colours were provided for me during our research - I could/would not paint the car green - In memory of Gaston - I hate green cars anyway they are jinxed. We painted it plum which is Chrysler Morrocco Red used on Dodge trucks and is supposed to be the colour match for plum. I suppose we are somewhat authentic since of course we don't have a twin cam Monroe Engine (Future replication project), we are using a modified production engine as did the ordinary frontys. In the history it was Gaston's crash that started the Green Car superstition in Indy racing.
One of the spooky things about its first major competition outing was that we raced it on the anniversary of Gastons death. We drove it hard and finished second over 5 days of competition - so Louis would have forgiven us.
I have the photograph in my collection of the fronty with the motometer - it is a museum photo so it could be from another race- I will dig it out to check.
FrontyRacer

I have now found the information I was looking for.
As the 37Kid stated - there were no motometers used in 1920. All Frontenacs in 1921 used them except #28. This does not help us since the radiator cap could have been off nearly any of the 1921 or 1922 entries.
The photo of the wreck posted by Harms Way was of Arthur Chevrolets car. He was seriously injured in the crash when he was side swiped by Rene Thomas' Ballot. The car was repaired in 24 hours and was raced as #7 by Bennett Hill who crashed after 115 laps.

The radiator cowl was designed by Louis Chevrolet and was part of the radical aerodynamic design of the 1920 Frontenac - reputed as the first aerodynamic Indy Car. The Chevrolet bros. were also running the Chevrolet Bros Aviation Company and were experimenting with aerodynamics. The radiator cowl was designed as an aerodynamic shape which would separate the air stream with minimal wind resistance. The daisy petal was cut in the front to allow some turbulent air behind the separation point to pass through the radiator at speed. I believe the cowl was fitted over the shell since it only needs the filler hole to locate it and some fastening at the bottom to keep it there. It was a horrible thing to make. Gastons car was unfinished when it raced - the cowl still had all the rub marks on it in the official winners photo (nicely painted in later photos) it only finished the 1920 race since it had not practiced and just qualified. It did not have enough miles up for the Chrome Vanadium steering arms to fail like the others. (Henry Ford provided the steel to Louis and he did not heat treat it - big mistake) As the story goes Arthur and Gaston had accepted a wager from Champion to win on their plugs (without Louis' knowledge) When Louis found out after the race he apparently kicked the front wheel of Gaston's car in rage and the steering arm broke and fell to the floor.

The shape of the body was streamlined to make the airstream pass around the drivers and form again behind the car hence the conical tail. The wind deflector was designed to deflect the air stream over the drivers head.Mechanic sat well below the air stream.
This was the theory and it works. On our replica car, the profile is scaled off the original photographs and the Etzels model and was designed on CAD. The aerodynamics are amazing - the car does not hit a brick wall at 85 mph like most cars of the era. It goes up to 100mph and currently runs out of RPM's. The only time it went over 100mph in a race we ran a centre main bearing and frightened the daylights out of us. The air stream flicks over your helmet and flutters on it if you lift your head. You don't get wet if it rains until at speed.
The handling is fantastic for a car of this age - throttle on oversteer, neutral with the throttle off. It only got better when we tweaked the set up. Believe it or not we can do proper rally turns on bitumen much to the amazement of the media at the events we do at International Level. Handles like a rally car on dirt - feels like a go kart to drive since you are nearly sitting on the rear axle. The handling is due to the weight distribution of Louis' design.

I will keep hunting for clues.

Regards,

Fronty Racer

 

Thanks Fronty Racer for your updated information on this post,.... I am slowly learning more and more about these cars than I ever thought I would.

 

Intersting thread...

NOT to hijack the thread, but Ford Of Canada offered a "one year wonder" in 1960. Based on the "all-new" Falcon, Canadian Mercury Dealers got a version a year ahead of the Comet...called the Frontenac...

BTW, our County here in Eastern Ontario is called "Frontenac", so we have some sensitivity to, and knowledge of, the heritage of the name.

"Now we return to our reguarly scheduled program"...

Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited

The 1960 Frontenac, sold only in Canada in 1960 by Ford of Canada


In 1960 Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited introduced the Frontenac in order to give Mercury-Meteor dealers a compact to sell. Produced for the 1960 model year only, the Frontenac was essentially a 1960 Ford Falcon with its own unique grille, tail lights and external trim including red maple leaf insignias. Despite strong sales (5% of Ford's total Canadian output), the Frontenac was discontinued and replaced by the Mercury Comet for 1961.
The Frontenac is another example of U.S. automakers' attempts to market slight variations of U.S. models as unique Canadian makes. Like Ford's Monarch and Meteor, and GM's Acadian brands, the Frontenac was not part of the Ford or Meteor line. It was its own brand and was marketed as such.

 

Never knew about the 1960 Frontenac, just Googled it and see that the Ranchero version would make a good parts chaser.

 

Tyres were 32x 4 1/2 (read off an indy photo) Oldfield Cords by Barney Oldfield.

If the radiator is off Arthur Chevrolets crashed car which was driven by Bennet Hill in the race, it was a Frontenac and was of course Red (Plum) so you will be looking for red paint on the radiator.

The height dimension of these radiators is shorter than you think - when we scaled the car and put it on cad we found out some interesting things: It was claimed that the step in the chassis was to hide the driver / mechanic out of the air stream. This may be so, but the apparent real reason was the lack drop on the front axle which was typically veteran - no brakes style. The front is roughly 4 inches higher and this appeared to be taken out of the height of the radiator according to our calculations.
This corresponds to the drop in the chassis to allow the rear part of the car to be lower. If they had dropped axles back then, the chassis would not have required the step. The rear springs ran beside the chassis to reduce height.

Frontyracer

 

I'd think dropping an axle would have been easy to do, maybe the step had something to do with the engine to rear axle alignment.

 

Is this from a Deusey? Of if not, what is it?

am appealing to your extensive knowledge of early race cars, to help me identify this radiator.

It was sold to me by Alec (A. K.) Miller of Vermont, the Stutz owning recluse, in the 1980s.

It still carries the number 7 on the core, in general it resembles a walking beam Duesy radiator, but is it? It also resembles the radiators used the Revere at Indy in 1920, and those on some early racing Hudsons at the Savannah races maybe they were Duesys in disguise?

It is definitely a genuine, American racing radiator from the Edwardian period, but from what?............


I wonder, who raced behind this and where, the number 7 is most definitely genuine.

 

Welcome to the HAMB,saw the radiator on PewWarCar.com didn't know it was across the pond now. Look around here and post the same question with photo on the Board Track and Duesenberg threads. Post the dimentions, I'm guessing it is larger than a Model T Ford speedster size car. A.K.Miller lived in New Jersey at one time so it may have been on a car that raced in the Philadelphia or southern New Jersey area.

 

More info on that radiator.......

32" (815mm) tall, including the neck.

20" (510mm) wide.

ID number, 8128 stamped on rear.

Tag from manufacturer or repairer,on the rear, marked 'Pat Pend, El Arco Radiator Co, New York, Patent number 486065.

Applied tag with number, possibly after repair, 9210.

I have also included a photo of the cap, it is very distinctive, with an inside thread, ie the neck filler has an outside thread.

Also note that it has trunnion type mountings to the chassis, identical to the system on a 1918 Stutz for example, American in style, not European.

The very small inlet and outlet pipes are a modification that I did to test it on my central heating system in France.

 

Thanks for the welcome, I got to know Alec Miller relatively well when I bought my '18 Bearcat as a pile of well rusted bits from him in the 1980s. I visited him three times, once picking him and Imogen up from their home in Montclair NJ and driving them up to East Orange, Vermont where I stayed a week under their roof and did chores for them while he slowly did business with me.

One afternoon was spent moving a very old huge safe across a mud floored barn using rollers and levers. It was really heavy, no wonder as after their death, it was found to be full of silver bullion!

I sold the car earlier this year, the longest that I have ever owned any vehicle in 42 years of driving.

I have posted the details and photos on the board track thread as well.

 

When the Durant Motor Company wanted to expand into England they chose the Star model range although that name was already in use so they settled on the name Rugby. The pics below are a 1924 Rugby Tourer, same as a Star Model M although with a few changes. One of those changes was a nickle plated radiator. I have a feeling the radiator in question does not belong to a racecar. {could be a Canadian model of some sort, although i could be wrong.}

Check out The Durant Motors Automobile Club for further assistance.

 

It's all gone very quiet on this thread.........

Surely, out there, someone knows what the Number 7 radiator is from?

Mike

 

The radiator sat in my grandfather's shop! "Harry Robtoy" maybe my dad remembers what it is off of!

 

Hi Cindy,... and welcome to the HAMB.

I would be grateful to talk to your Dad, please note the radiator in question is on the first page of this thread,... not the one pictured on this page.

Thanks, Dennis