Can this be done by measuring the valve lash when the engine is at TDC and 360* past TDC? How far could the chain have jumped? Could it be far enough that the valves would be in the complete wrong positions or just slightly off? The battery needed to be charged; Its only about a year old but using it to crank the Buick has had me recharging it almost nightly for the last few weeks. The starter is original to the engine so it could be the original starter. How much voltage drop should I expect from the starter running? On the bench it spins very fast. Thanks, Ryland
I doubt that the chain jumped. Is that old Buick 6 volts? If so, spin it with 12 volts. Don't let the starter overheat.
If you dare to remove the dist, mark it were the rotor is pointing.Don,t turn engine.Remove it check the shaft and see if its loose.If loose setting to points will be all over the place. If ok get the old coil and some wire hook pos to + on coil.the points wire to other side of coil.The coil wire 1/4 from grd.The dist base to grd.Now just turn by hand and when its sparks well. put back in car.If its 12 volt should turn over fast.,worn bushing in starter will cause slow turning.Bushing at very end near gear.
I still can't get it to run. I took off all the plug wires and put them back on making sure i got them all in the correct spots. I set the timing by putting the engine at TDC of the compression stroke for cylinder #1 (front passengers side) I lined up the marks as well as checked the valve positions (both closed) and I lined the distributor arm up with the wire going to the #1 cylinder. I then cranked the engine over with a timing light attached and set the initial timing at 0*. I cleaned all of the spark plugs (twice), cranked the engine over a bunch with the plugs out, aired the engine out for 24hrs... I checked the points gap and it was a little tight so I set it to 0.016" but I am still getting a orange spark and the engine still wont run. I've tried varying amounts of starter fluid. Nothing. I even tried jumping it with my F250 and no luck. Any other ideas on what could be causing the weak spark? Thanks, Ryland
Dumb question but just to rule it out: the plug wires are going in the correct direction of rotor rotation, correct? Are the plugs wet again? If it was not firing the ether will wet things up and possibly puddle some under the carb. Do you have an oxy-acety setup? If so, adding NO gas or ether, introduce some O2 directly into the manifold - not much, just a tiny bit - BEFORE you crank it. Then try to start it and see if it kicks. Be careful with this because if you get happy with the oxygen and/or the acetylene this might get interesting in a very bad way.
I am 100% sure with out a doubt that the plug wires are all routed correctly. The plugs feel pretty dry but I am positive they were dry before my last attempt to start it. They will be cleaned and dried again before I try to start it again. I do not have a oxy torch I really think its the weak spark that is getting me; or at least it would make me feel better just to know I am for certain getting a good strong spark. From what I have found things that cause poor spark are poor ground, bad wiring, bad points/condenser, bad coil, bad rotor cap or rotor. All of these I have checked any seem to be in good order and most of it is brand new. What are methods for tracking down a weak spark? Thanks, Ryland
Not to belabor the point, but I am not sure from your response. The plug wires both need to be going to the correct plugs (the firing order) but also going either clockwise or counterclockwise at the cap, depending on which way the rotor turns. Crank the motor with the cap off. See which way the rotor turns. Then confirm that the wires follow the firing order in the direction of rotor rotation. On to the spark: a bad condenser will burn points, but that takes a while and will not be much of a factor on a cold start. Plus I believe you already tried swapping in the old condenser, so that should not be it. The points need to be clean. Sometimes they are oxidized or pitted. Use a points file to make sure they are clean. You must use a points file as an emery board can leave particles behind on the points, and a thick file (points files are thin) can file the mating surfaces at an angle. You want the point surfaces to meet square. Maybe open the point gap up to .020. Make sure that the pigtail wire from the points to the coil does not have broken strands or bad insulation. This happens right where the pigtail enters the dizzy, and sometimes the damage is hidden. Make sure that nothing is shunting the points to ground (on the side of the circuit from the 'hot' point thru the pigtail to the coil). Make sure that the plug wires are well seated on the plugs. Make sure the rotor is good and that the center contact of the rotor is contacting the center terminal of the cap through the tiny 'spring'. Make sure that the coil is connected properly. A backwards hooked up coil will give you a weaker spark. Connect a wire from the battery right to the hot terminal of the coil. This is to rule out any weird problems in your ignition switch circuit. This is now your ignition switch. Do not include a ballast resistor in this temporary circuit - you can ignore that until the beast finally starts. Swap in a coil wire from a known good motor and see if that gives you a better spark. Make sure you have a good battery and good battery connections. You are probably pulling down the battery trying to crank over that old, stiff motor. If necessary, use a different battery to power the coil (as described) than you use to crank the motor. I might also crank the motor over on the starter only with the plugs out to build oil pressure and confirm the motor can spin over fast enough. If it drags with the plugs out, it will be even worse with compression.
The rotor turns clockwise and the wires are situated clockwise on the cap following the firing order (1-2-7-8-4-5-6-3) With the plugs out the engine builds up 30-35psi oil pressure. I will give the rest of your suggestions a go. Thank you so much for your help; I hope one day I can be as helpful to the hot rod community. Ryland
I feel your pain had the same problems on my 55 322 and 54 322 starter turned over good never did get the 322's started now i have the same thing going on my 264 on mine i thought it was point gap and needed a better ground you have a good rotor and cap? read some of the posts can't remember those spark plugs on you album scary some of the answers posted should work
One other thing to check just for grins. These would not stop the motor from kicking on ether but could still slow you down. Pull the top off the carb (you can leave the carb on the motor). You should have clean gas in there and not some honey-colored, thick goo gas. Nor should there be any water in there. Pull the floats and make sure the bottoms of the bowls don't have sediment. Clean as needed and fill with clean fresh gas. Reassemble and operate the throttle linkage once or twice. You should get a clean shot of gas down the throats from the accelerator pump. Again, a bad carb/bad or no fuel will not prevent the motor from kicking on ether, and yours has not yet done that IIRC. Nevertheless, it is something to check although one of the electrical things I mentioned will probably help get you going.
What I do in that case; Turn the motor to the spot where the points will open/close, just by rocking the rotor. I think you said you bypassed the coil resistor? That would be good, but watch the points for overheat if you leave the hot wire on too long. Now pull the coil wire out of the dist cap. Either have it arc to the engine, or put one plug on that wire. Rock the rotor quite a few times to see if the spark is consistant, or if it hits weak sometimes. If it is weak at times, I'd suspect points. I just file or sand them, then wipe with a clean piece of paper. Some I even hit with a small grinder to smooth the bumps. I really think you are fighting a wet motor; gas or oil, etc, puddles in the runners. A motor that sat will be a pain to start the first time. Once the thing fires it will clean everything out. I have only had one recent one, that had new plugs that got wet, and just would not spark. If you don't get anywhere soon, I'd buy new plugs. The video sounds just like the bitchy one I did 2 weeks ago. It is mint now, guy just picked it up today and was thrilled. That one took 3 hours, as it was full of penetrating oil, etc. it would foul the plugs on each try. Stick with it.
Your car is 12 volts and Echlin NAPA coil is IC12 and has resister of 1.82 OHMS # ICR13. Take a wire from Pos +and run to one side of resister,there should be a wire to + side of coil.If you keep setting your points you have a loose shaft in dist.Replace with a new consenser. Now place the jumper wire to coil direct and try to start or open and close point.It should be a snapping spark and jump 1/4 from coil wire make sure you have a good wire your old wires are better then new ones.Until you get a good spark keep at it. I like to take dsit out oil and inspect it and do it that way. Now a kids once you take the dist out it will never run agian. Just kidding.The only other thing its out 180 degs.
If you are not getting any where and you don,t know any thing about this engine.May have had a problem years ago and have a bad timing chain. On v8 there is a chain and the marks are 12 pins on right side that points to marks on gears.If it jumped time or were put like chevy ford with points 6 and 12.It would sound not right when cranking over.At mark little pass the intake should start to open close at bottom 1/2 turn both closed for one full turn and ehaust last 1/2 turn till tdc TDC both valves closed. That should be close enought.
Any luck today? I live about an hour away in Cathlamet. I might be able to run out there at some point, but my schedule is pretty crazy.
Well I replaced the wire from the Distributor to the coil with a heavier new section of wire and it seems to have helped the spark a bit. Rocking the distributor arm back and forth opening and closing the points gave me a pretty consistent spark. There were minor variations, it every 5 or so it was thinner and more blue but the vast majority were a consistent fat orange spark. The points look shiny clean and they are only a week old so I doubt they are corroded to the point of affecting the spark yet. Should I still try filing it? How I have it wired up I do have a wire going directly from the battery to the coil but tomorrow I will try using another battery to power the coil separate from the starter. I believe I have mentioned this but when I try to start the engine smoke comes out the breathers. What would cause this? Thanks, Ryland
It's blow by from gummed up rings, most likely. If the engine was not siezed with rusty cyls, I would not worry yet. The car I just did had serious blow by, but it gradually cleared up. the owner was dumping ATF, Kroil, and diesel down the cyls and valves. The crankcase was overfilled with it. I left in in there for a week, starting it each day. I assume it helped, as it seems fine now. That is what I meant about a long dormant engine. Some loss of comp at rings, some loss at slightly surface rusted valves/seats, and then it won't fire right up. Once it does, most issues go away.
Thanks. First thing tomorrow I am going to run to NAPA and buy some more starter spray. I have Gumout now; is there any brand that is better than another? I will probably just buy what is the least expensive. My battery runs down pretty quickly while cranking so tomorrow I think I will try and start it until the starter slows down, put the battery on the charger, clean the plugs and let them dry and repeat. Does that sound like a decent plan? The in between time will give me time to try and track down the electrical problems in my '76 SR5. Ryland
Any brand ether should be fine. Check the weight on the can and get the one with the lowest cost per volume. For sure try to use an another battery just for the ignition. Steal a battery from another vehicle if you must. When you spray, do it with the throttle butterflies open and the choke open so that the ether goes into the manifold. Then keep the throttles open and the choke closed. Then crank until you are sure all the ether is gone. Repeat. Do that until it kicks and then you can try half throttle - you will get the feel for it by then. Keep the throttle blocked open so that you are not pumping gas into the manifold. Make sure you are in neutral or park and ebrake engaged and that your wheels are blocked. I have seen it happen, and it is ugly. You get so engrossed in trying to start it and all of a sudden it catches and a runaway ensues. I think you are closer than you think. BTW the smoke out the breathers probably means you are getting a little combustion and it is smoking right past the rings. Soon it will be more and more and all of a sudden enough to make a piston move a bit. Also, if you have a decent charger, keep it going while you crank. Every little bit helps.
Just thought of another thing to check. See if you have white corrosion in the metal connectors between the wires and the cap, or the wires to the plugs. If so wipe with steel wool or whatever.
Some how I missed your post. I have not got it to run yet but if I am running into the same problems F&J was then hopefully today is the day! If I can't get it going soon we can see if we can work something out. Ryland
Well the day aint over yet but so far it has failed to fire. I am getting a good amount of smoke out the breathers but no much else. I have cleaned the plugs/aired out the engine at least 5 times today; the part that is really getting me is it only takes a few minutes of cranking the engine before it needs to charge for another hour. Should I keep going? What should the engine be acting like before I start trying it on gas instead of (or with) the starter spray? Thanks, Ryland
So this is a good battery? or older? If you know it's good, I'd then assume too much draw from the starter. I forget, did you clean the starter out? another thing. I don't crank very long after cleaning plugs; if it does not do good things right away, I pull them again, or recharge/wait a bit. Do the plugs get real wet, real quick? If they stay mainly dry, try using the accel pump, not pouring. When I get to that point, usually they don't fire at half or full throttle, but yours could differ. There is some chance the cylinders/rings are washed dry by now. I might try something a little more oily than PB Blaster, aimed good in each plug hole. I forget if you said this is 12v or 6v? if 12, 2 batts tied together with good booster cables. If 6v, bypass the cars feeds, and go 12 to starter.
I'm starting to think the plugs are not sparking under compression. Humor me here Got an old lawn mower or something 4 cycle with a running motor? Make sure it runs then put one of your plugs in to see if your plugs are firing good or at all. That'll dry them out good.
1The battery is only a year old but I purchased it for the Buick and it has sat for most of its life. If I let it charge over night I'm sure I could get longer out of it. I have been cranking the engine until the smoke stops coming out the breathers then cleaning/recharging. The spark plugs seem pretty dry when I pull them out and generally by the second spray of cleaner the cleaner dripping off them is clear. I cleaned the solenoid but not the starter. On the bench it spins very quickly. I am leery about taking the starter apart as I have a tendency to not be able to get electric motor back together but I will if I need to. The only 4 strokes I have are my 94 F250 and my 76 Toyota; I'll see if the Buick's plugs will fit in the Toyota. Its 12V. If I tie the two batteries together should I run them parallel or in series?
Neg to neg, pos to pos, just like boosting another car with your car. I have never had the courage to try 24v but the concept is.. interesting Try to run those plugs in some motor. That Buick should have fired by now with all you have tried. Think about getting a bit of lube in the cylinders; I'd bet you have used quite a bit of ether so far. A dry skirt could gall quick if it does take off and rev. Once it does fire, keep the rpms down as much as possible for the first few minutes.
For lube would a bit of 10-30W be a bad idea? I wouldn't be worried about it on a running engine but I feel like it could stuff up my plugs pretty quick. I just re-timed it; same as I left it. So I should shoot some oil down it, turn it over a few times with the plugs out, try the plugs in the Toyota, then try and start the engine with a bit of gas through the accelerator pump (and ether?)? Ryland
yes How about PB or similar with the red tube nozzle? Just aim for the inner inboard wall so it can run down the piston edges. Then spin it a few revs. But try to run those plugs in something else to see if they even still fire, and to roast them clean. Then put them in the Buick, give a few accel pumps and try it again. Like I said before; I did have one newly rebuilt engine that refused to start with new plugs. The guy flooded it due to a bad magneto, then could never start it with a new mag. The plug we kept pulling to confirm the spark, was the only one that fired ! Finally pulled the rest of them, and saw they were dead.
I agree that you are getting too happy with the ether. Try starting it with gas. It has fresh gas, yes? Also, like F&J said, get a little lube in the cylinders. I would use a thin oil. PB, ATF but not much. You want the bores slippery but not a bath. Maybe lube the bores and spin with no plugs. It should spin faster as the lube spreads. Then replug and let it start on gas. Also, that battery sounds slim shady. I would charge it and connect another battery in parallel as suggested. But, battery #2 shoule be in a running auto on fast idle - 2000 to 2500 rpm. That way the car's alternator will be at full output. If you just have two batteries in parallel, the stronger one will just try to recharge the weaker one. Having a running engine in the loop offsets that.
The Jalopy Journal
