289 Ford... and I'm an idiot

I'm feeling pretty dumb and pretty defeated about the situation I've gotten myself into. I should have passed on the car on account of the motor(the cause of all my problems), but I got caught up in how much I liked the rest of it.

The car is a '65 Falcon Futura with a non numbers matching but supposedly correct year 289. The 289 has a 500 cfm Edelbrock carb, Performer intake, GT40 heads, cam(don't know exact specs), Blackjack headers, was told 10:1 compression and a GM style HEI.

When I got the car it had a slight knocking sound(I should have walked away). The guy that sold me the car assured me that the motor had been rebuilt not very long ago(less than 3000 miles) and that the noise I was hearing was just the headers hitting the shock towers. I convinced myself this was the case because there was less than 1/16th inch clearance in a few spots and the noise was not yet very loud(like I said I really wanted the car).
I got the car home and replaced the carb first as it had a 750 double pumper with no choke when I got it... way too much. I put the 500cfm Edelbrock on it and it idled a lot better and thus the headers weren't making as much noise. It was at this point that I began to realize I was actually hearing 2 different noises.
I made a little more clearance between the headers and the shock towers so that noise is gone. However, the other more awful sound is still there and I swear it has gotten louder every time I've started the car just to move it. The bulk of the noise seemed to be coming from #7 so I pulled the rod cap and looked at the bearing. It's wear seemed a bit off, alot in the top and bottom - almost none in the sides. I checked a couple of others and they appeared worn the same. I checked the journals with a mic to make sure that I got the correct new bearings and to see if the ones I was replacing were correct, they were. I looked at all the journals to make sure I wasn't going to need the crank ground and it looked really good(surprisingly).
I replaced all the rod bearings and cleaned the pan up before putting it back together. As I was cleaning to pan I found that there were 3 or 4 very small bits of metal in the bottom... oh great. I cleaned it up and reinstalled it figuring at least it will be mobile again while I try to figure out where to go from here. I put penn grade 1 oil in it and fired it up hoping it might not be making as much noise... no such luck. The thing is just as loud as it was before. I just checked the timing today. I know the timing is retarded a bit. It's only set at 3 or 4 degrees at the moment because that GM style HEI won't turn any further with things in their current position(there is a coolant bung in the way). So I know I'll have to remedy that situation.

So this is where I'm at. I really don't know(or maybe won't accept) where to go from here. The knocking sound is exactly the same as it was with the old rod bearings and is the worst I've ever heard. Do I just bite the bullet and pull the engine and rebuild? I'm hoping I'm not the only who has gotten themselves into a situation so foolishly.
I also keep asking myself how it got to sounding so much worse between the time I bought it and now. I only drove the thing home and to the gas station once(20 miles? total). I then start questioning if I got screwed or if I really am just an idiot combined with the worst luck ever.

Anybody have any advice to offer?

 

Broken piston skirt? Does the knocking go away if you pull the plug wire while the engine is running? Valve lash? Rocker hitting valve cover?

 

Mechanical fuel pumps on some fords will make a knocking sound. Also check your crank shaft end play.

 

Lots of things to consider. Don't go pulling it out for a rebuild until you know what is wrong with it. How's the oil pressure when hot?? Cold?? A loose manual flywheel will cause a knock, so will a cracked flexplate, and the aforementioned cracked piston skirt, all will cause a knock sounding very similar to a rod. Could be something on top of a piston. Torque converters have been known to come apart internally and cause a knock. 289's are cool little motors, just find what is wrong and fix it. Cheers, Ron

 

I'll ask is it an auto trans and bet the torque convertor bolts are loose on the flex plate/flywheel...

 

I haven't checked anything since I replaced the rod bearings. Before I replaced the bearings I pulled plug wires one at a time and that was how I decided #7 was the problem. The noise didn't go away completely but was very nearly gone when I would pull the #7 wire.
Honestly, the thought never occured to me about the rockers.

Something I also forgot to mention the noise seems to go away completely at about 2000 rpm

 

Oil pressure is great and doesn't seem to change very much from cold to hot. Seems to mostly stay between 50 and 60 lbs.

 

Yes it is an auto. That'd be great if the problem were no more severe than that.

 

Hmm, that reminds me. I know on the C4 the torque convertor has studs that go through the flex plate. The convertor also has a drain plug that lines up with a hole in the flex plate. It will only locate one way, but the studs will all still line up. It's possible to not have the plug and hole line up, and distort/damage/bend the flexplate while tightening the nuts. That will make noise.
But if the noise goes away when you pull that one plug wire.....I'm guessing cracked piston, or a bad wrist pin, piston too small for bore etc.
Check the easy stuff first.

 

Can't really help in the troubleshooting,
just to say that I had a 351 windsor in a 75 van,
the thing started to knock.
On top of that the oil seeped out of the rear seal like there was nothing there.
Anyway after a couple months I replaced the oil pan seal which was a huge PITA,
and meanwhile did a quick plastigage of the bearing clearances.
Way out of the tolerances so much I had to triple check the slop.
Figured it was time for some straight 40 weight!
Anyway I kept driving it,
long distances too like 200 miles back and forth and hauling butt to boot.
Finally I found a replacement van and sold it.
That van circled around town for at least 3 years before it disappeared,
with absolutely no engine work done to it!
Always knocked a little bit and somehow never bit the bullet.
From then on (and before) I always liked the SBF windsors.
TP

 

Yeah, wrist pin is what I am fearing at this point. In this instance however I would love to be wrong.

 

You mentioned finding small pieces of metal in the pan. Were they alum.-steel- bronze?

 

I bought a 65 Mustang a few years back from a guy that told me the 289ci engine had been rebuilt. Motor was knocking when I got the car so I took it apart. Engine had good oil pressure. Well guess what? Somebody put the thrust bearing on the first main instead of the middle main where it's supposed to go. Had way to much crankshaft end play! Cleaned up everything and put it all back together. Runs perfect now!

 

Get a long screw driver or a real mecanics stethescope and figure out where the noise is coming from.

Heres a good bit of info from the Fox Valley model A club:
TROUBLESHOOTING ENGINE NOISES
A KNOCKING SOUND IN THE ENGINE IS MOST LIKELY CAUSED BY ONE OF THE FOLLOWING

1. PISTON SLAP: Makes a sharp metallic noise. Idle engine and short out each cylinder plug. The noise will disappear when plug with bad piston is shorted. Noise will also disappear at acceleration. This can be caused by worn or out of round cylinder, or broken piston ring. Correct problem by re-boring cylinder and/or replacing piston.

2. VALVE NOISE: Makes clicking or rattle noise. Caused by excessive wear on valve stem or lifter, out of adjustment, or stuck valve. Correct by adjusting valve clearance, replace worn valve or lifter, regrind cam, replace valve guide and /or valve. A stuck valve can sometimes be loosened by passing oil through the carburetor while engine is running.

3. ROD BEARING KNOCK: Makes sharp metallic noise similar to a piston slap. Detection is opposite of piston slap. Rod knock is not heard at idle. Knock becomes louder as engine speed is increased. Caused by excessive rod bearing clearance. Correct by adjusting rod bearing clearance to .0015 inches by removing shims. May require re-pouring rod bearing.

4. REAR MAIN BEARING KNOCK: Makes dull knocking or thud noise. Detected at speeds between 20 and 50 MPH. Knock will normally decrease or disappear while pulling or decelerating. Noise will be detected the loudest at normal driving speed, when not pulling or decelerating. Correct by adjusting bearing clearance to .001 to .0015 inches. If knock is excessive, crank should be checked for out of roundness. May need to re-pour all main bearings to correct.

5. TIMING GEAR KNOCK: usually the most difficult to diagnose. If gear is loose or badly worn it will knock in all ranges. Run engine slightly above idle speed. Slowly open and close throttle. Knock will continue to be present, but just as engine slows down knock will become a slight rattle. Remove timing pin and reinsert into timing hole on timing gear cover. Press timing pin tightly against timing gear and accelerate slightly above idle. Knock will significantly be reduced or disappear. Correct by replacing both timing gear and crank gear as a matched set. The two gears should have a backlash clearance of .003 to .004. If more than .009 inch backlash, an oversize (.005) timing gear should be installed.

6. WRIST PIN SLAP: This can not be detected by shorting out the cylinder plugs. Rapidly accelerate and decelerate the engine speed. The engine will pass through a certain speed range when the wrist pin will rattle at about the same pitch as a valve tappet noise. This can be corrected by installing a new wrist pin bushing in the rod or new wrist pin f badly worn. Wrist pin should fit the piston and connecting rod with a tight metal to metal fit. The pin can be pushed into the piston and rod with a slight pressure of the hand. Pin to rod clearance is .0003 to .0005 inches.

http://http://www.foxvalleymarc.com/Tech_section/tech_info.html

Model A specific, but a good troubleshooting procedure.

 

I'm really not sure. They were only about 1/4 the size of a BB or maybe even a little smaller.

 

it is posable that they put a 351 cam in it i have ran into this before that has a knock to it and idle kinda rough try rewiring to the 351 and try it (make sure you go counterclockwise) hope this helps

 

If it had a 351/302HO cam a number of cyls would be firing @ the wrong time & it'd run like shit, if at all.

 

How much oil pressure do you have? If you still have the pieces of metal stick a magnet on them. That'll help to know if they are steel or alum

 

Small block Fords are notorious for cracking /collapsing piston skirts, if the pistons are the stock cast type. I've seen way too many of these (23 years with Ford) over the years. When I build a small block Ford now, I use noisy forged pistons.

 

Oil Pressure stays between 50 - 60 lbs

 

I had a similar problem with a SBC. Turned out to be the wrist pin on my #6 piston.

 

I forgot to mention...
When I was initially pulling plug wires to determine which cylinder may be my problem I noticed something odd. For part of the cylinders the loss of spark would only cause a very minor change in the way the thing was running and on other cylinders the loss of spark would cause it to run very rough.
Don't know if this provides any further insight into my current dilemma or only points out yet another issue for me to deal with.

 

The old 289/302 firing order 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
The 351, and late 302 firing order 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Don't know if you know but on a Ford the passenger side cylinders are numbered 1-2-3-4, and the drivers side 5-6-7-8 starting from the front of the engine to the rear

 

I found that if the torque converter plugs/flexplate isn't aligned, the engine won't spin at all.

 

Make sure the block plate and inspection cover are present.

If so, make sure they aren't bent and causing rotating parts to hit it.

I've seen Fords make noise in BOTH these scenarios. Deep, ugly, knocking noises that sounded much worse than they actually were.

 

I have also seen several times the harmonic balancer comes loose or starts to seperate, this make a knocking noise.

 

I also have found the balancer to be the problem with knocks.
my future son-in-law bought a mustang with a 289 and it had a "rod knock" so I went over to look at it, enden up being the pully that was bolted to the balancer was attached with bolts that were too long. swaped in shorter bolts and no more noise.

later we found the bolts were too long becouse other bolts were broke off down in the holes, drilled them out and installed new bolts.

 

I was just checking the cylinder numbering out yesterday. Kind of threw me since most of my previous experience had been with SBC.

Thank you for posting the later firing order.

 

Cracked flex plate...

Had this happen in my brother's 302/C4 in his Mustang... made a horrible knocking sound that we thought was a rod bearing.

We were kids... and our dad schooled us on the real problem.

Sam

 

Several have mentioned flexplate and/or balancer.

The noise seems to disappear completely at 2000 rpm or so. Is this consistent with a flexplate or balancer issue?

Also, I have noticed that there are a few different choices in flexplates for a SBF. Is there a possibility that this could have the wrong flexplate? I ask because the trans is also not original to this car. The guy said it had come out of an early Bronco.