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Projects 1960 Pontiac Catalina Stick Car!

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by 31hotrodguy, Mar 3, 2020.

  1. I have a factory aluminum BOP bell. Its for a 66 and newer engine. it has the dual trans pattern. Some GTO's and Old's 442 came with ford three speeds. Some of them are short like your original three speed. pontiac alum bell 001.JPG pontiac alum bell 002.JPG
     
  2. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 3,980

    s55mercury66
    Member
    from SW Wyoming

    My '68 400 Firebird had that same bellhousing also.
     
  3. 31hotrodguy
    Joined: Oct 29, 2013
    Posts: 2,604

    31hotrodguy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Not knowing much about the GM X frame cars I thought I could maybe run the long tail shaft Pontiac trans and then run a one piece drive shaft but I don’t think it will clear the x member tunnel.
    I’m going to look through the chassis book and see if they show a picture of the 4 spd mounted. Curious how Pontiac did set up for the different trans.




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  4. 31hotrodguy
    Joined: Oct 29, 2013
    Posts: 2,604

    31hotrodguy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Old wolf,
    What year ford trans would I look for? My 4 spd is a super T10 which I’m worried is not strong enough considering what they came in.


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  5. 1965 and up into the 70,s. They made millions of the short ford transmissions. the ones from behind a FE are stronger than the small block and six cyl trans.
     
  6. Ron Emerson
    Joined: Feb 1, 2017
    Posts: 171

    Ron Emerson

    Wow that's an awesome find and you have done a good job raising your kids to help you, my 3 boys helped me a lot as they were growing up. Which brings me to my next point.
    My older brother purchased a brand new 1960 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible, it was black with the triple blue interior black convertible top, it had the 389 engine with Tri-power and a 4 speed with bucket seats. I was 10 at the time and use to play in it shifting it and flooring the gas and working the clutch ( until I found out that I was flooding the cylinders with fuel " stupid kid" ) My mom use to drive it but she didn't like to use 2nd gear ( it was a close ratio 4 speed). My brother sold it to a guy after he was laid off and the guy kept it in his garage until he passed away. ( I don't know if it is still in his garage or not I guess I should find out but that was so many years ago ) Thanks for bringing back some memories for me.
    Thanks and good luck on your adventure.
    Ron.
     
  7. 31hotrodguy
    Joined: Oct 29, 2013
    Posts: 2,604

    31hotrodguy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thank you Ron for the encouraging words and for sharing the story about your brother. Any chance somebody has a picture of that car???


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  8. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 3,980

    s55mercury66
    Member
    from SW Wyoming

    A Super T10 should be stout enough, shouldn't it? An old standard T10 may not be, but the later "Super" ones will take a pretty good beating.
     
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  9. Torkwrench
    Joined: Jan 28, 2005
    Posts: 2,494

    Torkwrench
    Member

    As has already been mentioned, that's the same 3 speed as used in the 58 - 64 Chevys.

    Concerning swapping in a 4 speed......A Super T 10 is a very strong transmission. It's equal to, if not stronger than a Muncie 4 speed. Plus, it doesn't say "Ford" on it. LOL.

    I've never done this transmission swap in a Pontiac, but have done it several times on 59 - 60 Chevys, (using a Muncie 4 speed). In a Chevy, the same trans cross member is used for all transmissions....3 speeds, 3 speed OD's, automatics, and 4 speeds.

    The cross member on a 4 speed Chevy is mounted in the same location as for a 3 speed, but is installed is a lower position when using a 4 speed. This is because the 4 speed rear trans mount is in the same location, (front to back), as a 3 speed. However, since the 4 speed tailshaft case is deeper, (top to bottom), than a 3 speed, the rear mount is lower than on the 3 speed. On a Chevy, both sets of mounting holes are there, from the factory. Although, I've always used Muncie 4 speeds, a Super T 10 would use the same installation methods.

    From your photo, it's obvious that a 60 Pontiac used a different cross member than a Chevy. However, since your 3 speed is the same as a Chevy, the mount location for a 4 speed will be the same as in a Chevy with a 4 speed. That is, it will be in the same location, front to back, but will be lower in the car, than with a 3 speed.

    Check for an extra set of mounting holes for your cross member. It MIGHT be as simple as using a different set of holes. If not, fabricating a new mount should not be too difficult. From your photo, it looks like there is plenty of room to drop the rear mount. By the way, it might be easier to use a later style transmission mount, like the following.

    https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p...lvEAkYAyABEgJUP_D_BwE&store=7134&gclsrc=aw.ds

    As far as the drive shaft, it will need to be shortened. Chevys used a two piece drive shaft. The rear half was the same for all transmissions, 3 speed, 3 speed OD, automatics, and 4 speeds. The front half was a different length for different transmissions.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
  10. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,260

    Gman0046
    Member

    Wolf, that bellhousing you pictured in your Saturday post above fits a 1965 engine as well. I have a 65 engine thats attached to a 2004R in my 60 Pontiac.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
  11. 31hotrodguy
    Joined: Oct 29, 2013
    Posts: 2,604

    31hotrodguy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thank you Torkwrench, that was very helpful! I have made the switch between 3spd and 4 spd several times in my 57 Chevy but because there is no crossmember I never paid any attention to the rear mount of the trans (my 57 3 spd OD doesn’t even have a trans mount)
    I had assumed the trans pad on the short 3 spd and 4 spd were in different locations because of the tail shaft length but after measuring them this morning I realize they are in the same( as you mentioned) .


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  12. 31hotrodguy
    Joined: Oct 29, 2013
    Posts: 2,604

    31hotrodguy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I got my Long Branch exhaust manifolds from Ram Air Restorations today! I still need the oil filter adapter an possibly the mini starter. Adjustments.JPG


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  13. Torkwrench
    Joined: Jan 28, 2005
    Posts: 2,494

    Torkwrench
    Member

    You're welcome. Glad to be of some help.

    By the way, does your Pontiac have a two piece drive shaft? With a mid-ship bearing, like an X frame Chevy? If so, there are some easy ways to reinforce the stock bearing support.

    There are also heavy duty mid-ship bearings that are available for 58 - 64 Chevys, but I don't know if they will fit a Pontiac. A bit pricey, but they are VERY nice.......And MUCH stronger than the stock bearing. This is what I have in my 59 BelAir.

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...MI596qseTp6AIVksDACh292QHsEAQYAyABEgJA-vD_BwE

    59 at Cordova.jpg 2011_08_06_Bob_&_John_@_Cordova_02.jpg
     
  14. Bullit68
    Joined: Sep 16, 2009
    Posts: 114

    Bullit68
    Member
    from Verona, PA

     
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  15. Bullit68
    Joined: Sep 16, 2009
    Posts: 114

    Bullit68
    Member
    from Verona, PA

  16. Bullit68
    Joined: Sep 16, 2009
    Posts: 114

    Bullit68
    Member
    from Verona, PA

    Mig welded the lower patch in, the upper was filled with PC7 epoxy.
    I think I may still have an NOS four speed transmission mount, I sold the car.
     
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  17. Bullit68
    Joined: Sep 16, 2009
    Posts: 114

    Bullit68
    Member
    from Verona, PA

  18. wvenfield
    Joined: Nov 23, 2006
    Posts: 5,226

    wvenfield
    Member

    If not, I think I do.
     
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  19. Yes my bell fits any BOP engine that has a block mounted starter.
     
  20. Poncho60
    Joined: Jan 23, 2011
    Posts: 240

    Poncho60
    Member
    from N Illinois

    The driveshaft hanger bearing can be rebuilt if required and the housing itself is still useable. The bearing is around $65 and the assy rubber isolator can be revulcanized by Steele for around $75 I believe. The Chevy bearing is not the same from what I remember. Not sure if the new Chev assy will work.
     
  21. 31hotrodguy
    Joined: Oct 29, 2013
    Posts: 2,604

    31hotrodguy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    By the way, does your Pontiac have a two piece drive shaft? With a mid-ship bearing, like an X frame Chevy? If so, there are some easy ways to reinforce the stock bearing support.

    There are also heavy duty mid-ship bearings that are available for 58 - 64 Chevys, but I don't know if they will fit a Pontiac. A bit pricey, but they are VERY nice.......And MUCH stronger than the stock bearing. This is what I have in my 59

    It is a 2 piece drive shaft. Adjustments.JPG Adjustments.JPG

    But like Poncho mentioned it is different but I don’t think it would be impossible to make an adapter bracket to use the stronger aftermarket one you mentioned from summit racing.

    By the way, Nice 59! Especially nice to see it being raced!



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  22. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,260

    Gman0046
    Member

    Scott, the heavy duty carrier bearing support used on X frame Chevy's is good quality (provided its nota Chinese repop) but exremely rigid which requires a slip joint on the forward driveshaft section. Inland Empire Driveline makes a good made in USA support.


    Gary
     
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  23. Poncho60
    Joined: Jan 23, 2011
    Posts: 240

    Poncho60
    Member
    from N Illinois

    The stock center bearing is plenty strong for whatever you probably have in mind. A guy that posts on the Ames sight used to race a 60 that was running in the 10s with the stock center bearing wo problems.
     
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  24. 31hotrodguy
    Joined: Oct 29, 2013
    Posts: 2,604

    31hotrodguy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

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  25. 31hotrodguy
    Joined: Oct 29, 2013
    Posts: 2,604

    31hotrodguy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  26. Bullit68
    Joined: Sep 16, 2009
    Posts: 114

    Bullit68
    Member
    from Verona, PA

    You’re welcome! It just makes the column look correct for a stick shift cars.


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  27. 31hotrodguy
    Joined: Oct 29, 2013
    Posts: 2,604

    31hotrodguy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I remember when my father in law changed the timing cover to the later one but I don’t remember what kind of condition it was in when he installed it. Either way after 10 yrs if sitting it corroded away a nice hole in the timing cover. The strange thing is there was plenty of anti freeze in the water so I would have figured it would be somewhat okay???[​IMG]

    After taking off the water pump I found a weird mixture of rust and silicone looking gel????????. [​IMG]


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  28. Anti freeze loses its rust inhibitors in a relatively short time. I always drain out a gallon every fall and add a new gallon to freshen up the mix. As bad as your front cover looks. I would knock out all the core plugs and really clean the water jackets.
     
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  29. Poncho60
    Joined: Jan 23, 2011
    Posts: 240

    Poncho60
    Member
    from N Illinois

    Based on how that cover looks and how long the engine has been sitting, I would be a little concerned about the condition of the block. Based on my experience w a friends 392 hemi that sat for a long time that way. Just my 2 cents.
     
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