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1940-1942 Ford Chassis - confusion - seeking help

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Eric Huffstutler, Aug 22, 2013.

  1. Eric Huffstutler
    Joined: Jun 15, 2010
    Posts: 60

    Eric Huffstutler
    Member

    There has been a long time discussion about the differences of not only the 1940-1942 Ford chassis frame but also the Mercury. Looking at different frame dimension charts, there are differences in layout and disign especially when speaking about the 1940 year. Chilton Motor's Manual shows one design while blueprints like Tatham show another. When it comes to Mercury the two are completely different not only in wheelbase but overall design for 1940. Then when you get to 1942, the center of the X where the driveshaft goes "through" it in 1942 is shown most like that of the 1941 design in Chilton and seeing people selling frames, they are different designs shown that year. It also appears when looking at 1941, the X tunnel has a flat top while later years like 1948 have a diamond shaped top?

    Is there a Ford expert out there who can clear up this mystery?

    I can provide examples if needed to help along the discussion...

    Eric
     
  2. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,758

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    40 Ford frames are totally different from 41-48. The 41 thru 48 will basically interchange with each other, but there are subtle differences.

    Same for Merc's: 40 only, then 41-48.
     
  3. Eric Huffstutler
    Joined: Jun 15, 2010
    Posts: 60

    Eric Huffstutler
    Member

    Is there a way to tell when the "differences" between 1941-1948 occured?

    I know for a fact that the 1940 Mercury frame is completely different than the Ford which is the same from 1935-1940. Just that some people seem to put the 1940 Ford frame in the same design class as the 1941, which on alignment charts is different. And even charts don't agree on design for 1941. Some show the 1941 to be a driveshaft above frame design (similar to the 1940 mercury) while others have it where the driveshaft goes through the X like in 1946-1948. All confusing.
     
  4. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    1935-40, plus '42 pickup...same profile, lots of minor variants for the several different brakes and steerings and clutch controls and such.
    '39-40 Merc, entirely separate from Ford in body and frame dimensions.
    '41-48 Merc, same frame as Ford BUT with front crossmember shoved forward for longer front end design...many frames have both sets of holes.
    I think in the '41-48 span there were two sources of frames with same basic layout but different stampings/fastenings at X. Never paid much attention to this as it doesn't seem to affect anything...I've never even noticed which version my '48 has, and I've probably done more time lying under there than many HAMBers have been alive...
     

  5. Eric Huffstutler
    Joined: Jun 15, 2010
    Posts: 60

    Eric Huffstutler
    Member

    Bruce, I have tracked down examples of bare frames for the questioned years and bookend years too. Seems like with Ford, 1935-1940 are the same. The 1941-1942 are the same and have a flat top clamshell center tunnel at the X brace axis which drops down the sides of the rails among other things. With post war 1946 I have seen the 1942 style as well as a new 1946-1948 design where the center tunnel is sealed off with a diamond pointed top cap that sits on top of the rails and doesn't drop down around them. I suspect that they may have used some of the 1942 designs -- left overs? and then misyear changed to the new frame with cosmetic changes?

    As for the Mercury, the first year 1939 looks to be the same as the 1939 Ford but 1940 is different... like the 1941 Ford? Need those straight too.

    Eric
     
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  6. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,758

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Typo, he means '41 pickup.
     
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  7. pasadenahotrod
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 11,776

    pasadenahotrod
    Member
    from Texas

    Merc frames are the same 39-40, used unique body not shared with Ford. Also have odd drive pinion in rearend which is also the driveshaft, one-piece, no coupler.
    Merc frames are the same 41-48 but share body with Ford, extra length in WB is in the nose.
     
  8. Eric Huffstutler
    Joined: Jun 15, 2010
    Posts: 60

    Eric Huffstutler
    Member

    I am hoping this may help some with a side-by-side of the Ford frames? You are saying that there are two versions of what I call the clam-shell 1941-1942 version? But I have seen the 1941-1942 to appear to have carried over some into 1946? Can both be verified? Thanks.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  9. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Anyone have the '41-48 resto book handy?? I think this is simply the result of two different plants feeding the frames to the assembly plants. I've got the 1946 service manual here, containing a glimpse of the frame type in that middle picture.
     
  10. Eric Huffstutler
    Joined: Jun 15, 2010
    Posts: 60

    Eric Huffstutler
    Member

    From what I have heard in the past from someone deep into military vehicle history, there may be cars actually built in 1942 but was re-vin, sold and registered as 1946 as they were unsold leftovers placed into storage during the war. But new tooling was done in 1946 for new assemblies onwards. Could also acount for the early print book showing the older frame, done before retooling decisions made - or just reprints with a year change?
     
  11. Eric Huffstutler
    Joined: Jun 15, 2010
    Posts: 60

    Eric Huffstutler
    Member

    Yes, any help coming from official reference books would be great. That 1946 book showing the 1941 style frame, what was the publish date? Do you have a scan of that chart-page?

    This has been ongoing for years to sort out the different types of frames and yes as Bruce hinted at, the 1941 pickup carrried over the old design one more year on pickup trucks while cars changed.

    And anyone have diagrams-photos sorting out Mercury as well since I had heard that Ford borrowed the layout design from 1940 Mercury for it new 1941 design. Someone said the 1939 and 1940 Mercury frames are the same. I seem to recall seeing the 1939 looking almost identical to the 1939 Ford and while 1940 Ford stayed the same. Mercury changed completely (at least shown on my blueprint alignment charts done the years the cars were made) and Ford used that design for their 1941?

    Maybe we can sort it out for everyone? :)
     
  12. 1sic50h
    Joined: Feb 18, 2009
    Posts: 53

    1sic50h
    Member
    from San Diego

    I just built a 39 ford sedan frame with mustang 2 and 4 link and did a 40 ford frame coupe the same and both frames were the same as my 1940 Merc coupe frame . Only difference is the Merc frame is 4 inches longer .


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  13. Sort of on the topic of the frames, the diffs. Are the 40 Ford and 40 Mercury the same width?

    With thanks

    Gavin
     
  14. Eric Huffstutler
    Joined: Jun 15, 2010
    Posts: 60

    Eric Huffstutler
    Member

    The treads are identical for both so figure so are the axles. Tread is 58.25"

    Eric
     
  15. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Early '46's used some '42 type parts that were soon retooled...floor pan with tool well, fuel pump with no glass bowl, etc. Leftover cars are HIGHLY unlikely...the last '42's were corraled by the government and doled out to high priority civilian users like law enforcement, and the government bought its own '42 sedans built in several batches during the war.
    If you own any '39-48 Merc, it is a good idea to get the '39-49 Merc parts book and learn to distinguish between the Merc and Ford parts prefixes...this allows you to figgerout which parts are easy to find Ford parts and which are Merc only.
     
  16. didn't they go to a dedicated truck frame '41? pre '41 other than commercial offerings the truck and car used the same frame. @Bruce Lancaster am I mistaken here?
     
  17. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    '28-41, pickups used basic passenger frame. '41 was an oddity because they kepth the basic '40 frame in production rather than basing it on the '41 car. '42 up they went to plain ladder frame and oxcart suspension for pickups.
    Anything heavier than the basic 1/2 ton pickup always had different frame from passenger.
     
  18. thanks I couldn't remember if it was '41 or '42 that they made the change.
     
  19. '41 pickup frame is basically the same as a '40 with one significant difference. The '41 front crossmember is deeper to clear the 6 cylinder engine option first offered in '41. A '41 pickup will sit a little higher in the front because of that. If you're looking at a bare frame, the '41 pickup is easy to identify by the front crossmember. The ends of all other Ford front crossmembers fit up into the frame rail channel. The ends of the '41 pickup crossmember lap over the top of the frame rails., and you can tell from looking at it that it has a deeper center than other '35-'40 crossmembers. '41 was a transition year before the totally new frame came out in '42, it was basically what they had to do to shoehorn a 6 cylinder into a '40.
     
  20. metal man
    Joined: Dec 4, 2005
    Posts: 2,948

    metal man
    Member

    I don't have anything to add to what these guys have provided, 'cept for one little thing that most people don't notice... For the '35- '40 Ford frames ( at least some of those years ) pickup trucks AND convertibles and roadsters were made of a slightly heavier guage steel than the other passenger cars. It was just one guage thickness difference. Those frames have a large " H " for heavy, stamped into the X- member. My '37 convertible has this frame.
     
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  21. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 481

    nobby
    Member

    found it... large 'H' stamped into x-member = heavier guage frame,

    question, is the actual stamping of a 42 -43 44 frame rail,
    the same as 35-40 even though its wider - wide x-members
     
  22. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,684

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

    Has anyone with this "H" frame actually measured the thickness and compared this to a non "H" frame?
     
  23. woodiewagon46
    Joined: Mar 14, 2013
    Posts: 1,699

    woodiewagon46
    Member
    from New York

    The 1940 Ford chassis is totally different from the 1941 thru 1948. The following is taken from the V-8 Clubs 1941 thru 1948 Book. "The 1941 and subsequent Ford chassis parts manuals list two frames for Ford passenger vehicles, 1941-1948. One frame part number 11A-5005-A (succeeded by frames 21A- and 51-A-5005A), was listed for all "closed" passenger vehicles". "A separate frame, 11A-5005-B, (succeeded by 21A and 51A-5005-B) was for the model 76 Convertible Coupe and in 1946 and 1947, the model 71, Sportsman". So basically what they are saying is that only two frames were used, one for closed cars and one for the convertible cars. The Article goes on to state that modifications were made, such as bracket changes, shock absorber mounts etc and an all welded design in the X member between '41 and '48.
     
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  24. woodiewagon46
    Joined: Mar 14, 2013
    Posts: 1,699

    woodiewagon46
    Member
    from New York

    Nowhere in the V-8 Club book or the 1938-1946 Ford Red Book can I find any information on the so called "H" (heavier) frame. Where did you source this information from?
     
  25. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 481

    nobby
    Member

    [​IMG]
    Hello, this was bamboozling me for a while...…….
    the black frame IS a 37 pick up, I 'DO' seem to remember finding a stamped in cap I or h in it somewhere, can't remember where exactly now though, I think it may have been on the rear crossmember and it be about 1/2'' tall - cap I serif looks like an I-beam
    the frame in grey primer.... It 'FELt a lighter guage, I initially thought the thickness may have been due to the surface rusting away..
    it seemed plausible that a sedan or coupe didn't need the heavier guage as the body offered some rigidity
    a pick up and roaster would need some help -

    so, it doesn't help me as I have a car frame and need a pick up version for my 38 pick up, so I need another chassis. - bugger

    anyways, what I was thinking wason a 48 frame
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020

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