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Projects 1927 Roadster on 1931 chassis

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by DesmoDog, Sep 13, 2016.

  1. All getting very exciting !! The photo I posted of the F-1 box on my Ts A frame was in that position with a 241 Red Ram Hemi so there may be enough room for a flat motor, I had to off set my motor (SB Chev) 3/8'' to the right to miss the oil filter casting on the block. You said the A frames are flimsy, they are and really need to be boxed. As for the fire wall, you could extend it down easy enough if that's what you like, I have seen some done like that. I will get a photo of one I saw in Utah. JW
     
  2. Ok, this is HAMBer Daddio211''s T roadster under construction and will give you a good idea of the full length fire wall. JW
    [​IMG]
     
  3. You mentioned positioning the body on the frame and in post #4 you have two photos showing the top of the rear sub frame and you will notice the hole on the top, this hole must be in line with the centre line of the rear axle or it will look like crap as the rear tire/ wheel will not be centred with the rear fender outline. Mine is out by 1/4'' and is just noticeable. JW
     
  4. DesmoDog
    Joined: Sep 16, 2002
    Posts: 223

    DesmoDog
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Hamb dog lovers

    Thanks, someone pointed that out and it was one of those "well, duh!" moments... not sure why I didn't figure that out myself. But anyway...

    One other fun detail I noticed last night. The water pumps have two different pulleys on them, the belts don't even line up between them. What the heck was going on with that? Some sort of old school speed secret? "With one water pump on a belt you only lose half the amount of power spinning the pump!" or some such reasoning I'm sure.

    I did some more measuring last night and I'm thinking this thing is pretty close to where it needs to be. I'll put the body/radiator on to be sure, but so far, I ain't scairt none!
     
  5. Texas36
    Joined: Oct 20, 2012
    Posts: 249

    Texas36
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Houston Area H.A.M.B.ers

    I just cut a big notch out of my crossmember [​IMG]
    I have the same thought as you about keeping it in for added strength.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  6. carbed87
    Joined: Nov 3, 2008
    Posts: 581

    carbed87
    Member
    from denver, co

    Very interesting build so far man! I will be subscribing!


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  7. DesmoDog
    Joined: Sep 16, 2002
    Posts: 223

    DesmoDog
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    1. Hamb dog lovers

    So who knows about numbers cast in flathead blocks? I think it's D2991 or maybe 02991 but I don't see any info on those in a google search... Engine is an 8BA according to the heads and the bellhousing type. IMG_1021.JPG
     
  8. DesmoDog
    Joined: Sep 16, 2002
    Posts: 223

    DesmoDog
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Hamb dog lovers

    I pulled the engine out to make a few changes. So... Engine in/out count is at 1 now. Any bets on how many times it's in and out before this is done? I think the over/under is 10.

    Anyway, Before I pulled it I made a few measurements to see how much of the crossmember needed to go away. I decided I wanted the bolt holding the pulley to line up with the hole for the crank in the Model A spring clamp. My reasoning is... if the crankshaft for the V8 is at the same height as the model A crank was, and the intake is at the right angle, then the height of the transmission has to be about right too. Of course this assumes a few things concerning the flathead vs the banger engine but I think for the most part it is sound reasoning, and for what I'm doing here it's as good a method as any for getting things "right".

    Right or wrong that's how I came up with where I wanted the engine to sit. Made the measurements and scribbled some lines on the back of the crossmember. I thought I was going to use a grinder with a cut off wheel to make the cut, which is why there's a straight line on there on the sides, but in the end I dug out the little air powered cut off wheel and free handed the curve. Saved a boatload of grinding when I was done.

    IMG_1025.JPG

    Ended up with this as a first stab. I was pretty sure I'd have to cut into the base of it too, but for now this was good for another mock up.
    IMG_1030.JPG

    Next I had to deal with the new F1 style crossmember hitting the stock one before it was far enough back . I was going to cut the base of the crossmember down but decided to get out the torch, heat it up and bend it instead. The plan is to bolt the new crossmember in place once I figure out where that place is for sure, then move the original crossmember back in the frame some to give me room for a master cylinder. Then I can bend the tab back.

    Bent the tabs and dropped the engine back in. I'm still using the Model A clamshell, it'll get things close enough for now. The correct clamshell should be here on Monday.
    IMG_1052.JPG

    Moving to the front, I got myself some super high precision Acme 8BA Mercury to Ford waterpump compensators and installed those. They put the front of the engine pretty damn close to where I want it to be in the final version.
    IMG_1059.JPG

    This was supposed to show how the bolt lines up with the hole. Yes, I'll be using a bolt that works with a crank, so in theory (and assuming the grill I use still has a cut out for a crank) some brave soul will be able to crank start this thing. Why? I have no idea.
    IMG_1062.JPG

    With everything pretty close to it's "correct" position, the cut out looks pretty good. I'll probably have to tweak the sides a bit but it's good for now.
    IMG_1063.JPG

    I also put an angle finder on the intake and with how everything is sitting, if I end up with 2 degrees of rake in the frame with the wheels/body on, the intake will be within one degree of being level with the ground. Close enough!

    I'm pretty happy with how it all fit togther so far. I'm pretty sure the firewall/bellhousing interface wil be doable. The transmission is sitting right about where I expected it too, and I may not even have to backdate the front of the engine to make it shorter so the fan fits. I'm sure I jinxed something by typing all that but that's the way it appears right now. The only hiccup I forsee is, it looks like when I cut the subframe of the body to clear the step in the frame I may have to move the crossmember of the body up a little to clear the corner of the 45 degree brace for the step. Stay tuned for details...
     
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  9. Time to put a radiator in the equation to check front clearance and check where the firewall sits in relation to the body lining up with the rear axle. If you need some reference point measurements let me know. Do you know what your wheelbase is at this point? You are making good progress and this is getting exciting.:cool::)
     
  10. DesmoDog
    Joined: Sep 16, 2002
    Posts: 223

    DesmoDog
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Hamb dog lovers

    I wasn't able to take very precise wheelbase measurements by myself (I'd get up to 1/4" difference measuring the same side twice) but it seems like it's around 103.25".

    I was going to weld up my subframe (it's broken) and cut the step out before I put the body on the frame, but I got anxious. The body is sitting at an angle because of the step, and the top of the radiator got pulled back a little further than it should have, but here's the general fit. All these pictures were taken with the mounting hole in the subframe centered on the frame's rear crossmember.
    IMG_1068.JPG

    A while ago I figured out where the engine is relative to the numbers in the Bishop/Tardel book, I didn't write it down but if I remember right mine is back about 2.5" from where they say to put the engine mounts. With the Model T body, I still don't see any issues with the firewall clearance. Granted I need to put an intake on there to know for sure (tomorrow probably) but I seem to have more than enough room. I'm guessing the pedals may need to be moved but the engine looks good.
    IMG_1069.JPG


    Moving to the front, a have about 2.25" between the end of the pulley and the face of the radiator. Again I'll have to put the intake on so I can position the fan, but even with an 8BA I think I'll be able to make it work. I really want to go with an earlier intake manifold to lose the draft tube, but I'm not as set on using an earlier waterpumps/distributor. I will if I have to though. Note in this picture you can see the waterpumps have different style pulleys. The passenger side lines up with the front crank pulley, the driver's side with the rear. Why????
    IMG_1075.JPG

    And here's the step area. I think what I'm going to do is put a horizontal cut on the side of the subframe at the height of the step, from the back of the frame to an inch or two in front of the crossmember. Then slide that whole section forward enough so the crossmember isn't hitting the step, then cut the diagonal to clear the step and weld it all back together. That seems like the easiest way to move/mod the crossmember. I don't see any reason it has to be where it is, I'm not using a Model T frame so nothing attaches to it anyway.
    IMG_1083.JPG
     
  11. lodaddyo
    Joined: May 5, 2002
    Posts: 915

    lodaddyo
    Member

    Ive never seen water pumps that look like that on the mounting pad. Maybe the engine was used in some type of industrial application and never in a vehicle to begin with
     
  12. Looking at what you need to do to get the sub frame to fit over the kick up and rear cross member, ( I cant see it fitting like that) I was picturing pinching the rear frame rails and narrowing the cross member to all fit inside the sub frame. I may be missing what you intend with the sub frame cutting, so please correct me.:D:D JW
     
  13. DesmoDog
    Joined: Sep 16, 2002
    Posts: 223

    DesmoDog
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Hamb dog lovers


    They are Mercury pumps, and in trying to find a picture that shows what Mercury pumps look like, I discovered that's how they did it in '50-'51. So one more mystery solved. Pictures stolen from a Ford Barn thread...

    DCP_3508.jpg DCP_3512.jpg DCP_3527.jpg

    The thread these pics are from:
    https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137768&showall=1


    The plan for the body/subframe is pretty simple, I probably didn't explain it well. It'll be easier to just do it and show pics later...
     
  14. DesmoDog
    Joined: Sep 16, 2002
    Posts: 223

    DesmoDog
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    1. Hamb dog lovers

    Welcome to today's installment of Fun With Fans!

    I tried to mock up a fan the other day and ended up confusing myself to no end, I'm not even sure I'll be able to describe what I'm confused about but here goes.

    The background. When I bought the engine, it had no fan mounted on it. What I started with was an 8BA with Mercury pumps, and what I think is a typical 8BA crank pulley and generator.

    The seller did throw an earlier generator and fan in with the deal though. Judging by the diameter (18") I think it is from a truck.

    Here is the generator that was on the engine when I got it.
    IMG_1095.JPG


    And below is the mess of parts I mounted on the engine to get an idea of what I'm working with. The radiator is off of a '31 Model A so it is too tall. Wild guess 4" too tall. I doubt I can go with a generator mounted fan because I'll likely be using a chopped '32 grill and radiator. Also, you can't really tell from the photo, but NOTHING lines up with anything else. That's not really an issue yet, I have a mix of eras so the pulleys are a mix of wide and narrow, etc.

    On to my confusion.

    As I understand it: The fan and generator I have on there are both from a pre-'59 engine. So... shouldn't that mean it's the shorter (vs an 8BA) set up? As everything sits right now, the fan I have would be about 1/2" into the radiator if it were installed. That's not a show stopper, worst case move the radiator forward. Not ideal but doable.

    Here is the rub: The crank pulley is an 8BA part. It is supposed to be longer than a 59A dual pulley, right? BUT... the pulley for the fan I have on there is further forward than the 8BA crank pulley. That leads me to beleive there is a shorter fan of this style, but I can't find it.

    I thought maybe a truck fan was a different length than the car fan, but everything I've seen shows the same part, car vs truck. The difference I've seen is in the diameter, not the length.
    IMG_1092.JPG

    The point of this was supposed to be so I could figure out which waterpumps to get. For some reason I was still considering going with the 8BA set up, but in light of this I'm going to order earlier waterpumps and build the front as a 59A. I just don't know what to look for in a fan though. Earlier dizzy, shorter cam, earlier cam gears, earlier crank pulley, different timing cover, check. Got it. But what about the dang fan? I thought I HAD an earlier fan but it's pulley is further forward than the 8BA pulley even. I don't get it.

    I had to put the intake on for all of this. That made me realize the rear of it is further under the firewall than I thought, but not enough to change any plans. I'm going with an earlier (dual carb) intake to lose the draft tube, which means a combo fuel pump/breather stand. I'll mod the upper part of the firewall to make it fit if I have too, there's nothing behind there now that the gas tank is gone. In this shot the body is tilted forward to get access for cutting/welding the subframe, so the clearance looks worse that it will be.
    IMG_1105.JPG

    So to sum it all up, the mock up of the fan just confused me, I can't help but think I'm not dealing with what I thought I was. I'm going to build up the front and intake like a 59A, and basically just deal with the fan issue as I go.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
    26 T Ford RPU likes this.
  15. May be time for a thread to ask what you need to make what you have work. The flat head V-8 boys will tell you what you need to look for. JW
     
  16. 5280A2
    Joined: Sep 8, 2014
    Posts: 71

    5280A2

    Your photos show the early (59A) fan setup with the wide belt pulleys. The reason it doesn't line up is that the late flatheads use narrow belts and pulleys for both the pumps and fan. Your photo looks like there may not be fan clearance at the radiator with the early setup. The two photos below show the early and late fans in place. The width of the pulleys is probably the best initial indicator of which parts are which.



    DSC01211.jpg

    DSC01242.jpg
     
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  17. DesmoDog
    Joined: Sep 16, 2002
    Posts: 223

    DesmoDog
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    1. Hamb dog lovers

    Yeah you're probably right. I want to get a little more familiar with what I already have first though. I did order early waterpumps this afternoon (along with a timing cover for a two bolt distributor) so I've committed to an early front end set up. I haven't found an early pulley yet, which will confirm where the pulley for the fan is supposed to end up.

    Yeah judging by the pulleys I thought the fan set up I have is an early one. And I get that the pulleys are different widths so don't match up. What I don't get is, If the front end of a 59A is supposed to be shorter than an 8BA, how can the pulley for the fan on the 59A set up be further forward than the outermost one on the 8BA crank pulley? The fan for the 8BA must be longer than the fan on a 59A. This would suggest a mix of 8BA and 59A parts would lead to the shortest possible combination, but I've never seen anyone mention that and I'm pretty sure if it were true, someone would have done it already.

    The pictures you showed... if I'm seeing this right the top one has early heads and fan with a late generator, all of which are bumped out to clear a late intake/draft tube and I would assume distributor.

    The bottom one has late heads/fan/generator/distributor with an early intake. So neither one is taking advantage of the shorter 59A set up.

    Basically the take away is it doesn't really matter what I do, there's a way to make it work and someone else has done it before. ;-)
     
  18. lodaddyo
    Joined: May 5, 2002
    Posts: 915

    lodaddyo
    Member

    IMG_0311.JPG
    Looks like you have the right fan pulley. You just need the correct 59a crank pulley
     
  19. 5280A2
    Joined: Sep 8, 2014
    Posts: 71

    5280A2

    DesmoDog you have a better eye than me; the top photo is indeed a late setup with wide belts Pickup or Merc?). Lodaddyo shows the 59A crank pulley and why the fan pulley is further forward. Here's more of a side view of the early version that I should have posted yesterday. Distributor is definitely up front on this one.

    DSC01236.jpg
     
  20. lodaddyo
    Joined: May 5, 2002
    Posts: 915

    lodaddyo
    Member

    Thats the same setup as i posted i believe. If you really want more room you need to go to a generator mounted fan and use a single belt. Thats what i did with my 8ba in my Av8.
     
  21. DesmoDog
    Joined: Sep 16, 2002
    Posts: 223

    DesmoDog
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    1. Hamb dog lovers

    Thanks for the comments. I think I have the fan figured out - not so much how I'm going to make it work, but what I have and what the different options would bring. I bought a 59A distributor and a '32 grill shell (repop) today, they should help me figure out what direction to go. I highly doubt I'll have room for a generator mounted fan as I plan to chop the grill shell. I also got a breather/fuel pump stand to see just how tight things will be in the firewall area. I do NOT want to move the engine back farther to make the fan work, but we'll see...

    I think my confusion came from expecting the wrong thing. I was under the impression a 59A was significantly shorter than an 8BA. From what I can tell now, that's only true if you don't include the fan. Granted I've never seen an 8BA fan but again judging from the pulley locations I'm guessing it sticks out about the same as the one I have.

    I've got a few ideas on how to make things fit, from the simple to the somewhat elaborate. I'll even entertain pushing the grill/radiator forward an inch or so. Not my first choice but I'm not ruling it out yet. I'm going to press on with my plan for now and when more parts show up I'll play with the fan more.

    Now it's back to making the body fit the stepped frame and figuring out how much I'll have to massage the firewall, if at all. Current plan for the intake is an early Offy dual carb manifold, a combo breather/fuel pump stand, and a mechanical fuel pump. And I'm not married to the mechanical pump part of the equation, I just thing they look kinda cool. it WILL sport an early manifold though, that is one of the few things I'm 100% decided on. I hate that draft tube!
     
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  22. DesmoDog
    Joined: Sep 16, 2002
    Posts: 223

    DesmoDog
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    1. Hamb dog lovers

    This morning I had the chance to make some noise downstairs and cut the subframe. I laid out what I thought had to go and then drilled a hole in the corner that won't have anything welded back in place. Sharp corners = not good... The tape is there instead of drawing a long line.

    IMG_1117.JPG


    Cutting didn't go as smoothly as I imagined it would (surprise surprise) but this should be workable. The front is angled because I didn't have room for the cutoff tool straight up and down.
    IMG_1125.JPG


    The rear body mount on the frame is uncut. Tardel's book says to cut the tabs off to get the body to fit, but I don't see why? Maybe it's a Model A thing, the Model T subframe is wide enough to fit over the uncut tabs. In fact, the mounting holes in the Model T subframe are actually wider than the holes in the Model A frame. Close enough to make work though.
    IMG_1139.JPG


    Here's kinda sorta how it will all fit together. Obviously I need to trim the metal to fit in place, but once it's cut the crossmember will sit level, about two inches further forward than it was before. I'm not sure I'll get to that today though. Desmo (the dog in my avatar) is nearing end of life and requiring a lot of supervision. Well, maybe not "requiring", but he certainly deserves it. My wife reminded me today that we picked him up from the rescue place fifteen years ago this weekend, and he was around two years old when we got him... That's a damn good run for a retriever. But I digress.
    IMG_1120.JPG

    With the body now near it's final position, I slipped the fuel pump stand on to see how I was doing. It just kisses the firewall, so a little tweaking will be in order. Considering this isn't the intake I'll be using and nothing is bolted down, I'll wait on modding that.
    IMG_1131.JPG
     
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  23. Thats all becoming clear and working out well. Coming together nicely, very cool. JW
     
  24. DesmoDog
    Joined: Sep 16, 2002
    Posts: 223

    DesmoDog
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    1. Hamb dog lovers

    Last winter I picked up a couple F1 boxes, one of which already had the flange hacked up on it. I figured that'd be the obvious start for trying to make one of these work with the VW mount.

    Here's the box, stripped down. Not as clean as it could be but that's life. I started out cleaning it, then got to cutting and grinding and one thing led to another.
    IMG_1147.JPG


    The thread I got the idea from mentioned the bore for the shaft wasn't centered in the casting, I found the same thing. He had a little spot that wasn't even touched when he was done. I machined mine down to a 1.77" diameter and it just barely cleaned up the whole diameter on the final pass. (This is an in process shot)
    IMG_1152.JPG

    It fits! And all it took was a little cutting on the bandsaw, a bit of grinding, and a bunch of cutting on the lathe. And two trips to the hardware store to deal with a little lathe issue.
    IMG_1164.JPG

    Sure, it fits... the mount anyway. I could swear that somewhere I posted I wasn't sure it'd fit the car? Yeah. Not even close. No way this is sitting on top of the frame with the engine in this position. It might fit in the stock position, but then the pitman arm would hit the hairpin.
    IMG_1170.JPG


    The box will fit UNDER the frame though... and still be higher than the bottom of the oil pan. This means the pitman arm would have to go up instead of down, which means the box would work backwards and the steering would be reversed. Which makes me wonder how our buddies that drive on the wrong side of the road do it? I know a lot of cars shared internals with the F1 box. What are the chances that there exists a right hand drive version of this box that has the worm screw wrapped the other direction? Mine has some pitting so I'm going to be buying a new one anyway. The angle of the steering column could be an issue but I think the length would be ok.

    Another option would be to ditch the hairpins and go with a modified wishbone I suppose. Cowl steering is looking better all the time...

    EDIT: Looks like the right hand drive part idea is feasible:
    http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_t...r-for-right-hand-drive-only-f1-f2-and-f3.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  25. Although we do drive on the other side down here but my T is a USA import and uses an F-1 box on the left side. We have many F-1 trucks here with right hand drive boxes. They are all getting very expensive now due to there popularity. Don't give up on the one you have but you may need to give up on that way cool VW mount. JW
     
  26. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 3,741

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    Have you considered machining the box so the bracket would fit closer in?
     
  27. DesmoDog
    Joined: Sep 16, 2002
    Posts: 223

    DesmoDog
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Hamb dog lovers

    I have looked at putting the F1 box in the stock positon, but that puts the pitman arm into the hairpin. I think the box under the frame might work after all, but I get more serious about cowl steering every time I mess with it.

    The big brown truck has been showing up a lot lately, and with this afternoon's delivery it's really starting to look like a hot rod! IMG_1241 copy.JPG

    I recently sold an off topic two wheeled vehicle so my toy fund is healthy at the moment. Time to amp up the turtledeck search, give more thought to things like cowl steering, and buy some of the other parts I've been oogling.

    In other news I welded the subframe back together so the body sits on the frame like it should and the cross brace is back in position. I moved it forward 2". If I had it to do over again I'd only move it forward 1". Moving it forward 2" puts it into an area where the subframe pinches in, so there's work trimming the front edge and twisting a tab to make it fit. If I brought it forward an inch I'd avoid that but the trade off would be trimming the back edge of the crossbrace a little. It worked, it just might have worked better another way.

    I also fit the hairpins. Putting those together made me realize I screwed up when I located the frame mounts, but that's no big deal. I only drilled two holes per side just in case I had to move them later.

    Other than that just a lot of small misc parts have been finding their way here. I think I have everything here or on it's way to work out the clutch linkage. I also got a 59A crank pulley so I can mock up the front of the engine and figure out the fan. A lot of time has been spent on the bike sale and tending to our vintage dog, so not as much progress lately as I'd like.
     
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  28. All good progress at the end of the day. JW
     
  29. carbed87
    Joined: Nov 3, 2008
    Posts: 581

    carbed87
    Member
    from denver, co

    love that trans crossmember.
     
  30. DesmoDog
    Joined: Sep 16, 2002
    Posts: 223

    DesmoDog
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    1. Hamb dog lovers

    Not much done since my last update. Much time was spent tending to Desmo, the dog in my avatar and inspiration for my username. Sadly he finally had enough and had to be put down yesterday. First time without a dog in 15 years... I don't like it. Not one bit.

    But that's a different forum so on to the car. I've been doing a LOT of planning and parts ordering lately. I've become infatuated with the intake on it and have ordered all the parts to rebuild a couple carbs, plus an ultrasonic cleaner. We'll see how that works out.

    I also ordered some 1/4" brake line, the copper/nickle stuff, and decided I wanted to do a hardline for the fuel. From what I've read the brake line should take solder pretty much like copper line, so I could get a "T" fitting and solder it all up. And I just might, but in the mean time I thought I'd give it a shot with stainless. I got 30" of 1/4" stainless line, some scrap 10mm stainless hanger material from work, a new brakeline bender from Eastwood and started playing around.

    First step was putting together a "T" for it. I drilled out some of the hanger rod, shaped one end, and had a guy at work TIG it for me. Then I put a 90 degree bend in the stainless line (it bent a bunch easier than I had been led to believe it would) and started sticking things together. I'm heading out of town tomorrow but when I get back I'll reclock the mechanical fuel pump (new, Offenhauser supposedly but no brand name anywhere on it) so it clears the firewall and bend up the feed line. Then silver solder the lines in place and should be done. I like the looks of a hard line better than hose, and this is a lot cheaper than all the clamps, banjo fittings, fuel block, etc.

    IMG_1264.JPG

    IMG_1275.JPG

    It still needs some tweaking but that's the general idea. I'll probably make another out of the copper stuff to have as a spare. Or use it if I like how it looks better. I like doing this stuff more than working on the chassis if truth be told. Before this my days consisted mainly of figuring out why things I had planned won't work, which gets pretty frustrating after a while. I'm much more familiar with the more mechanical side of things and can't wait to start digging into the engine.

    And, a buddy of mine from my riding days just informed me he now lives four miles from the Hot Rod Hillclimb, so it's looking like I'll be attending that this year! Cool...
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017

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