My first thread. Waited my entire life to build an old school/traditional ride. (I'll be 65 next week) Going with a flathead Ford based on an 8ba. Using Offy aluminum heads. Saw a "how to" from Speedy Bill. He insists that the only way to install aluminum heads is to use his method of hi-temp aluminum spray paint and copper head gaskets. He also said to use studs, not head bolts. I had a friend who's been doing this stuff a hell of a lot longer than me, and he said he has built many flatties and always used Fel-Pro gaskest and head bolts. He said there is too much to go wrong with diss-similar metals (ie copper against aluminum) and that he prefers head bolts to studs as they come apart easier than studs that over time, as corrosion can build up between the aluminum head and the stud. I've rebuilt a number of V8's in my life, but never a flathead. I have a flattie in my stock '51 F1 and love the motor and especially the sound. But I don't want my first build to be a screwup. I know I'll get many different opinions, but sure would like to hear from those who have done this.
I imagine lots of folks here have correct answers for this. I would try the Ford Barn guys also. http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/
I do it as your friend. I have not had it apart to know but so far it works. Everybody will have an opinion. Go with what makes sense to you. Both have been done and works. Neal
Shake-n-bake,over the years I've had chance to work a few Ford flat heads. The main reason to use head bolts is if you ever need to remove an alum. head, many times they will be stuck to the head studs,because of corrosion . I've seen many a head destroyed while being removed, with bolts,once the are removed there is nothing to bind the head other than the head gasket. ..................Jack
Thanks to all who have responded so far. I appreciate any and all responses as there isn't any way a person can have too much knowledge. I realize it can sometimes get confusing, but I truly appreciate the comebacks. Ben
Studs are easier and better if you are always screwing around pulling the heads. If so corrosion around the stud isn't a problem. You make both points of the argument in one statement. So do you think you'll be pulling heads often or not. Yes, use studs & no use bolts easy peazy. The copper gaskets are thinner and the aluminum paint does the sealing and dissimilar metal protection in one step. Thinner gaskets gets you higher compression, tighter quench and generally a more over all efficient engine. Figure out what you want and use every trick towards that goal. A man with too many watches never know what time it is.
Most of the studs/bolts go into water jackets, so sealing is going to be a problem. You don't know what frustration is until you have ten studs/bolts weeping coolant on your first startup. Studs can be glued in with the stinky brown Permatex and it will help seal them up. Bolts can't be glued in the same, as the sealer will need to remain pliable to re-torque. As for one gasket type over another, I think if you use coolant made for modern motors with lots of aluminum in them, you shouldn't have problems of dissimilar metals. I've used copper gaskets with Coppercote sprayed on them and they sealed well, and I've used Best Brand fiber gaskets with Coppercote sprayed and they work fine too.
Never built a flatty, and probably never will, but if I were worried about corrosion sticking the heads to the studs, I'd probably just wipe a little anti-sieze compound around the stud where it goes through the head...
I have studs on my 6/71 blown engine, use red Loctite on the stud into the block, No Leaks! It works as I'm pushing 15 lbs of boost into a 292 small block Chevy.
Thanks for all the shout outs. As for installing the studs, Speedy Bill's tech sheet says to use Moroso Ceramic Seal on the threads before installing them. No mention of thread lock. As for the possible problem with the aluminum heads being hard to remove in the future, he says to use a professional never seize compound on the studs before installing the heads. I don't intend to remove them anytime soon, so I'm not all that worried. The last thing that bothers me is the recommended initial start up. He says to start with no water or anti-freeze, just oil, and run till you can still put your hand on the heads. Then shut down, let cool completely and re-torque. Then fill with water/antifreeze. If anyone thinks this is a figment of my imagination, Speedway has a part number for this "Speedy Bill's Tech Sheet". It's 910-15895. You can take a look at it. Many of you who have responded are pretty much telling me a lot of what he is saying. But the points where he differs with the many, gets me concerned. Thanks again for all who have responded to this thread. Sorry if this sounds like a lot of yakity yak, but I just want to avoid any headaches. Ben
do not run a tap into deck holes....clean with gun brush and solvent. These are extra-tight threads meant to seal dry IF no one has tapped them alreadywith a common tap.* Studs good mainly because decks are thin, threads corroded and worn, etc., and you want to retorque several times as things seat...studs take all the wear of tightening off of those threads. Use original type studs, like from nacewicz, as lower part is special to seat into block...if everything is right, they will be watertight and vertical for no hassles. Corrosion is related to sloppy holes and leaks, but if worried...put some permatex or modern equiv on threads, grease the shanks as insurance against reaction with aluminum. Copper head gaskets do damage aluminum...movement from expansion or electrolysis or both? I like the idea of modern gaskets with mystery plastic on them. There has been a lot of work done on sealing iron to aluminum in recent years. Run engine on plain water for a couple of heat cycles and a few miles with no leaks...you might then do a run with ceramic seal used as intended in the coolant just in case of minor weeping, then drainitall and go to real coolant before there is any damage. *if holes have already been damaged by a machinest's tap, definitely use sealant like the modern grey stuff for sealing and attack the problem of sloppy fit/slanted studs by letting them set and dry straight... You just temporarily drop on heads and gaskets while the wonder goo is fresh, tighten (no need to get anywhere near final torque) with nuts and washers to pull the studs to vertical. A lot of speed equip is very sloppy...if some studs touch studs, just drill the holes in heads to slight oversize.
Might be a silly question, but I've never built a flatty, do the heads locate off dowels, or off the studs/bolts?
They locate off the head bolts/studs. As for the info that Bruce Lancaster gave me, I'm going with that stuff. It has made a ton of sense to me. However, the threads have already been chased during the machine shop work to the block. I will use the permatex sealant and run the ceramic sealant in the coolant as per his instructions. Thanks Bruce. And thanks to everyone else who chimed in. It has been a real help.
Studs can be removed from the block just as easily as bolts. I've seen bolts corroded into the heads also and the bolt heads will snap off. To save the head I'd drill them out. My grandfather showed me the old time anti seize. He dipped the bolts in melted wax before installing them. As has been said, the advantage of studs is that you don't disturb the sealer in the block because the external nut turns when you retorque.
Kinda thought they might, I couldn't recall seeing any dowel pins in any of the photos I'd looked at.
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