Enderle injector help!!!

We have recently (i say recently, but its been a season long battle) installed an enderle bird catcher on one of our dragsters. It's 431ci, we have an 80a-1 pump on it. The main line from the tank is an-12, there's no filter. From the pump there's a shut off with a return going to the tank, then a an-6 line to the barrel valve. Two an-6 return lines from the barrel valve are tied together with a y, and that returns to the tank.

Here's the problem. Ever since putting this setup together, the car will not run with anything larger than an 80 main jet. As soon as you put the car up on the converter it runs out of fuel. As soon as you pull your foot off the throttle itll clear up and idle. In theory, this car should be drowning. So the pump was sent off to be flowed and rebuilt, it came back basically new with good flow numbers. It was reinstalled, same issue. We thought we might have a plumbing issue, after studying all the diagrams we could we determined that was fine. The main line from the tank is 6 years old, so we thought it was possibly collapsing so we replaced it. We are out of ideas. Any experts wanna shed some light on where we are screwing up??

 

First off I figure that you are running alc

Second is that the The larger the jet the leaner it becomes, going the other way say a 60 jet the mixture becomes fatter.

-6 from pump to barrel IMO is too small and minimum -8 should be used
That pump flows about 6.5 gpm and should be OK since thats the pump used for blown alc a/fuel.

Personal pref is a 1" od alu tubing fuel line to the pump

I have racers out there with smaller engines (350) with that pump running 73 mains.
what nozzles are you running and whats the high speed set at?

 

You also havent mentioned if this "bird" was new or just new to you (used) and weather the BV was a "K" or "SQUARE", If its a used peice then are you sure that the BV is set up for Alc and not gas?
Did you check all the popets to make sure they are not hanging open?
The safest thing to do is to send the hat out and get it set-up/flowed as that will get you going in the right direction.
Dont go all crazy with special gizmos and adj flow lines or any other trick of the month. You just need to know where you are at right now with what you have. All you need is to make sure
1) that the BV is for ALC
2) that the nozzles have enough area for your motor size
3) that the leak down is within a workable range
4) all poppets are free and hold the right pressure
5) right now block off the highspeed (blank jet or turn can around)
6) I would think to start with a 65 main (who ever sets it up will tell you where to start)

I personaly use Ralph Gorr, but there is really no big secret to these things and there are a lot of shops closer to you that can help.

 

Bruce thank you for taking the time to respond, I really appreciate it. I'll answer in the order you asked.
Yes, I run alcohol.
I would think that with this engine size and pump size, it would need a much larger jet, say something like a 115 or so. I would think that at 80, the thing would be super fat. But then I'm new to this, and maybe I'm wrong? Any of the calculators I've looked at suggested a much larger jet.
I don't remember the exact flow number from when it was rebuilt a month ago but it's somewhere around 6.6gpm.
I think in the future that will be the way we go. For right now it's 3/4 stainless braid.
It has 35 nozzles and no high speed installed at this time.

I should have mentioned that this is a used setup that came from an unknown source. It came from someone in the race boat world, I can only assume that's what it was used on. It has a square barrel valve. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the difference between a gas BV and an alcohol. I do have 2 other full hat setups, one I am absolutely positive is an alcohol setup.
All the poppets have been checked and are moving freely.
The leak down should be good.
If we can't get it squared away on our own it'll have to be sent out. And that option is ok, but I'd love to be able to figure it out just for the education. I'm almost done setting up my car with the same setup and have a small block I'm switching over as well. It'd be nice to learn as much as possible. If it has to be sent out that's ok, I'd like to make sure I've tried everything before I do so. Thank you again for your help

 

I use Ralf Gorr as well, flowed my set up never have any problems.
Ralf knows his stuff !! Just get it set up by Ralf to many people think they know but really don't. Stop chasing your tail. You will learn after it's been set up properly Ralf gives you all the info you need for your set up.
My 2 cents worth

 

http://www.alkydigger.net/technicalinfo.php

 

I remember a racer having a similar problem.He could get the car to idle,but as soon as he came up on the converter the engine went lean.The input line went to the wrong side of the B/V.The input and secondary bypass were reversed.my 2 cents

 

I saw someone once that had the barrel in the barrel clocked incorrectly . The leak down check was able to be set correctly but when you gave it throttle it would shut the fuel off rather than open the port .Most people don't give it throttle when performing a leak down to set the idle but if you did you would notice it . If I remember correctly with a square barrel valve you can look straight into it with the poppets removed so take a look and make sure your barrel is clocked correctly .

Just my 2c

 

I have also seen the linkage reversed so it rotated the spool backwards. Another thing to check is the shutoff, if it's an older shutoff with the arm on a smooth shaft with no splines that it is truly not dumping fuel when it's in the on position.

 

I'm just not at the point where I'm ready to throw in the towel. By the start of next season our team will have at least 3 cars setup with hats, possibly 4. I'd like all the info I can gain.

Unfortunately there just wasn't a ton of info there for my particular issue. The other problem I have is everybody had different opinions on what's right and what's not. Some day you must run a filter, some say if you filter your fuel going into your jugs, and into your tank you don't need one.

Looking at all the plumbing diagrams, we should be right with what we have. I can snap some pics of the plumbing if that may help.

Yes, Dave Koehler flowed and rebuilt this pump about a month ago. Also, I've used spuds calculators to double check what I thought was a decent starting tune.

This is where I tend to think the problem is. Something in the barrel valve seems like it's off. This injector came from a pretty shady dude in the race boat world and it took months for him to send it. I don't know that it's setup properly and I think we need to take a hard look at it.

I think the shut off is ok, with it in the on position it looks to be wide open.

I appreciate everyone's responses, I will look at all the suggestions and see if we can't get this bitch figured out!!

 

dreracecar gave you some great advice. If it won't run with anything larger then you are obviously going the wrong way. Alky has a very large tuning window but you are still outside of that. Contrary to popular belief, on alky there is no huge power advantage to running close to optimum air fuel mixture. Honestly, they will make just about the same power really, really rich so it is best to start that way then sneak down toward the lean side than vice versa.

Every combo is different. You really can't use anyone else tune up for more than a "starting point" and then let the engine tell you what it wants. If it stumbles anywhere in the throttle or won't idle, it needs more fuel. How you give it more fuel is more of the question. Keep in mind that the advantage of injection over carburetion is the added fuel pressure so I prefer to use that advantage what I tune. If I am lean, I first try to give it more pressure. If that is not enough, then use other means to richen it.

<O</OYou will be too rich when it is using more than a gallon and a half of fuel during 1/4 mile run from staging lane to shut down area. It will also start to miss at the top end of the track and you will have trouble getting heat into the engine. Surprisingly, it will still be fast like this. Then you can start leaning it out. Otherwise, keep adding fuel and it will be happier and so will you. Fat and happy is the rule of thumb on alky.

Just as an example, my Crower set up on a 406 small block uses 35 nozzles, NO idle bypass at all (the barrel valve is capped off), I use an old adjustable hilborn valve for a main bypass that is almost completely shut off (probably equal to a 20 or 25 jet), no high speed bypass and a relief line off the pump for the end of the run for when you close the barrel valve at high rpm. Relief (pump saver) was set by the guy who flowed my system originally and I have not touched that part but I have changed everything else. My pump is relatively small for my engine's fuel demand but I am able to make it work by going off the scale so to speak.<O</O

 

These are the types of threads that I most enjoy. Not the "what's this worth?" Etc...

...I recently bought a used set of Kinslers and I'm glad I had them looked at by a pro because apparently somebody used a dremmel on the barrel valve to run nitro and would have been a real mess if it had gone unnoticed.

I'm no pro but I have run a 4 port prior to this and wet flowing that setup with different jets proved invaluable. I knew exactly what I was flowing across a wide range of set ups.

Wish you the best in solving your issue!

 

there was no mention of a vent in the tank and is it big enough.and is the poppet valve for the pump saver opening too soon. i had trouble with vent being too small.

 

As of right now I haven't had time to start more investigating, but to answer the vent question, it has a -12 vent and an -8. Two vents on the tank and both are clear


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Oh and no pump saver on it


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Sounds like you have the spool in the bv backwards. Easy to check. Take lines off. Put a light on the outlet side. When you open the spool i.e. full throttle you should have light.

 

Just an update: the car went out last night for a test and tune. With a 115 main jet, it'll fire and idle. However, as soon as you crack the throttle it tries to die. It gets progressively better as you you put a smaller jet in. With an 80 it'll fire, run, and you can rev the throttle with decent response. When you put the car up on the trans brake it'll rev to 6500 or so, and as you hold it there (like sitting at the starting line) the rpms start to drop. By the time the tree goes green the motor is out of fuel.

As for the BV, it seems to be right. At wide open throttle you can blow thru and it's free flowing. I'm lost. Everything seems right, I feel like it's something stupid that we are missing (or the problem is we are just stupid). I'll continue to try the suggestions, and again I really appreciate everyone taking the time to help.


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You did not read my first post

The larger the jet size the LESS fuel goes to the engine, The smaller the jet size the MORE fuel goes to the engine.

Injection as we run it is a controlled leak, meaning that the jet is on the back side of the system and regulates the amount of fuel being returned back to the tank and creates either pressure drop or increase

The restrictive smaller jet increases raises fuel pressure thus increaseing fuel flow to the nozzles
The less restrictive larger jet lowers fuel pressure and the fuel that would be going thru the nozzels with the previous jet size is now going back to the tank makeing the system leaner-less fuel.

I think the nozzles are too small, I run in the 48/49 range (bigger-more fuel) and I am only running a 377ci

The difference in the spool between alc or gas is the idle slot in the spool itself with the alc slot being larger because alc needs more volume to run and gas very little.

Without pictures I canout asses any plumbing or linkage issues and what is confusing me is that you have 1 feed line to the BV from the pump(should be -8) and 2 -6 (connected) coming from the BV back to the tank, but yet you say that there is no highspeed in the system. The HS is another brass poppet that is "T"d into the line from the BV to the distribution block at the back of the injector. As engine rpm's increase later on down the track this poppet opens and returns more fuel back to the tank because the engine does not require the same amount of fuel that it did at the start because it is running more effecently.If there is another line comming off the bottom of the BV, then it is for running port nozzles (another set plumbed into the manifold, usually for running Nitro). With a Square BV without a high speed you should only have one feed line to the back of the BV and a single return line from a brass poppet located on the bottom of the BV.If this other line returns back to the tank then what is happening is that off idle you are dumping most of your fuel back to the tank instead of the distribution block. Plug it off!!
All Enderle BV's have a notch at the end of the shaft and that notch should be close to 12 o'clock or pointing straight up if not them the BV is not right.

If you do not have a complete understanding of the system then in order to save time and money you must have the entire system flowed and calibrated to you engine--PERIOD.

 

BTW, the jets have no bearing on the idle circuit since the pump is at such low speed and not makeing pressure, its a flow thru the BV inlet and the seconary/idle bipass which is regulated at a couple lbs pressure.Rich or lean at Idle is set with the hex link between the inj and BV and the adjusted amount of leak (back to tank) for the correct amount of fuel at idle.When sombody says leak it down to 87% means that 87% of air volume at idle is returning back to the tank.

Fill your fuel tank as normal and cap it. Pull the line off the front, if the fuel comes out completely as a solid stream till enpty you are good. If at any time the fuel surges then you have issues with the venting that you either must increase the dia of the vent or unclog what you have.

 

Just to be clear, this is an unblown, tunnel ram injected, 431 cubes on alcohol. Absolutely nothing I have read suggests that this motor should have nozzles anywhere near as big as you suggest. Every calculator I've used, and every other racer I've talked to suggests something in the 120 range, which I understand would feed the motor less fuel. The setup on my 498 has 36 nozzles and a 105 main pill. 431 being smaller suggests it would need less fuel. I would imagine that your 377, on nitro (and blown, if I remember correctly??) would have very different fuel requirements.

I am going to post a pic of exactly how the car is plumbed. I haven't gone to the shop today to take a pic of the actual car but this will show how it is. What I have at the barrel valve is the main pill, which returns to the tank, an idle bypass, which returns to the tank, and the line going to the distribution block.

The flow coming from the tank is good. No surges, no stopping, just constant flow. The pump checks out very good, as it was rebuilt and flowed by Koehler in the last month.

While I am not an expert, and still quite new, I do have a rough understanding. I don't claim to know everything, or even much. If it comes down to it I have no problem sending the unit to be checked, but again, I'd still like to give it my best shot before I do so. Sometimes the education can be costly, right now it's cost me time and a little money. But I'm learning.


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If you would have said this in the begining my answers would have been different. When one starts out with "having problems with a enderle bird injector", one kinda thinks blown motor over a tunnel ram with a bird hat.
The one TR setup I have here that was just pulled off a running 454 that runs the same pump w/ a -6 feed runs #28 nozzles, blank jet in front of BV, and the "T" for the feed line has a #170 jet and 2lb poppet. the end of the BV shaft should have #32 stamped
I do run blown (alc) and setups for that are very different.
With the ommission of critical data you can see where this took a left turn

 

I apologize man, I tried to include as much info as I could and I clearly missed a critical point. I'm very familiar with your work and respect your info. Like I said earlier in the thread I appreciate you and everyone else taking time to read and respond.

Obviously injection is new to us. We did set one up about 5 years ago on this car for one season, at the time it didn't fit our needs. I'm determined to make it work and will be outfitting all our cars with them.


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This is how it's plumbed


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Monday, give Jim @ Enderle a call 805-526-3838 and get his recomendations on starting jets and nozzles for that motor. Its his unit ,he should know where to start

FI is all about pressure management and getting the balences.
On a nitro engine you can fatten up a hole by makeing some of the other nozzles smaller because the pressure increases across all the nozzles which is more fuel to the lean hole. If you went to a larger nozzle for that hole the whole system would lose pressure and go even leaner.

System is plumbed right, I think the system is off balence someware

 

Typical

 

Visually we are plumbed exactly the same way, other than the car in your pic appears to have a filter between the pump and BV.
Thanks for enderles number, I will call him Monday.


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The filter was the customers choice, I like filtering the fuel before the pouring into the tank so that the small pump does not have to fill that large canister and has a nonrestrictive shot to the BV. The fuelers running pumps 4 times that size doe not have that problem.

 

I agree with filtering the fuel first, that's why I don't run filters on these cars. Of course with my second car I'm finishing now, all the lines are new so I'm sure I'll be dealing with shit in them for a bit.


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I'm reading this from my phone, so I may not be able to see all the details, but on the left side of the pic, what's that line that appears to be going to the frame?


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If its the one coming off the valve covers then those are the breather lines, Plan was to run a blown engine with the catch tank in back behind driver,He wanted to spend money on braided stainless. If its the one from the tank then thats the breather.