Flathead straight 6 rebuild - help now needed * check post #22

I went back to look at your photos but way the pistons are positioned I can't see the rod numbers. Do you have more unposted photos of the pistons/rods?

Thanks, Dave.

PS. Make sure the oil holes in the bearings line up with the holes for oiling the pins.

 

Do a plasti-guage on #2, #4, or #6. Is it even or is it wide on one end and narrow on the other (tapered)? This would indicate rod misalignment if not relatively even.

Remove #2, #4, and #6 rods and have the machinist rebore the journal holes. Make sure the rod caps are mated to the rods before and after the boring.

 

A quick check: are all the rod bearing tangs on the same side of the engine? They should be. I'd be surprised tho if having half of them wrong would actually lock up a crank.

 

ok below are the pics i have of the bearings, tangs, and connecting rod caps. the rod and cap is for one of the evens (i dont remember which one). the bearings fit the odds correctly. so the mounting tangs on the caps and connecting rods are on different sides for the evens and odds. the plastiguage was even if i recall correctly. i will try to check it again tonight and if its not still on there i will run the test again. when i tore the engine apart i stamped the bottom of the caps with the number and an arrow idicating to me front. as soon as i had one pulled out i put it back together so that the caps and rods did not get mixed up. i later found that the caps and rods were stamped with the number so that they can be matched up.

dtracy: i dont know if the pistons are marked on the top. i honestly never looked for that. but your comment made me think about the orientation of the piston. it the piston is offset and was rotated 180, turned the wrong direction, that would cause a problem...i think. now i dont know if this engine has offset pistons or not. i know that when the caps are just hand tightend it all rotates. but even at 15 lbs on any one of the evens locks it up tight. it is a continental.

i guess i have some more checking to do.

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Does using the shells shown in the other half (cap or rod) put them right? It looks like it would.

 

are you asking if those bearing are correct to be used in the odds (rod and cap)?...

if that is what you are asking then yes. those pics was from when i first got the bearings and was told they would work. but clearly they didnt. so then i got a differnt set of bearings just for the evens and they match with the tongs in the correct place.

 

i dont have any other pictures are this point. but if you all need some. tell me what pics you want and i will get them. also sorry about the giant pics. i dont know nothing about re-sizing them.

 

You have a wrong bearing set !! That engine uses 2different rod bearings , FM numbers are 1995CP for the evens and 1995CPA for the odds. Get the correct bearings for the odds and all will be fine. That engine is a take off of a Continental F series industrial engine andthey did the same thing. Sold part for both for years.

 

Those rods are offset to one side, look at the bolts. Make sure the pistons are installed the right way around on the rods - look at the old pistons for reference in the pin area.

Dave.

 

It would only take a few minutes to remove #2, reverse the piston on the rod, re-install and tighten. If it still locks, swap it back, go for the bearings. If not, problem solved.

Dave.

PS. You have half a set of the wrong bearings that work, and half a set of the right bearings that don't. .060 under on both, right? This is my thinking.

 

for the bearings i have what i am going to call 3 set. i have 1 set (2 bearing parts for each rod. so a total of 6 individual bearings). for the evens. so each rod has the correct number and orientation of bearings.

i then have 2 sets for the odds. (2 bearing parts for each rod. so a total of 6 individual bearings; x2 so 12 individual bearings)

 

Bearings are considered as a pair [ieupper and lower] for one journal ,so what you have is 6 pieces equaling 3 pairs for 3 journals -rods. Cont used that odd setup on several engine series . As I said what you now need is 3 pair of 1995CPA in your needed size ,or another brand that interchanges with the FM number. This seems to be a common issue nowadays with off shore repo parts ,the asses don't know what they are doing. Also some suppliers don't know/realise that the extra letter [A] makes a difference. Those bearings were used in all the Cont "F" series engines 4 &6 cyl. Those engines were in welders ,farm eq.,fork lifts etc.

 

but i already have the correct bearings. they fit in the rods correctly. the pics i showed are from before i got the correct set. i have 3 pair of 1995CPA. my issue now is the assemble locking up when i try to rotate it. the locking up only happens with the even numbers.

 

Ok, are they the correct undersize? Look on the back of the bearing, it will be stamped there. If they are the correct undersize .060, try swapping the piston oreintation of #2. The rod must stay as you have it marked. It doesn't take much to lock an engine. Rod bearings come in undersizes starting at .001 of standard. That's less than a sheet of paper and I've seen .001 undersize bearings lock an engine because it wasn't worn that much, had to have standard.

Dave.

PS. Try a plasti-guage measurement on the side of the bearing up near the parting line. Do an up and down orientation of the guage rather than side to side. This will stop the pressure from smearing the guage material. It's not recommended and not real accurate but will show if rod is binding.

 

Ah !! The light dawns !! Check as said for size marking or betteer yet measure with a Mic. The bearing shell should measure .0691 in the center plus the amount US in this case .030 half of the total .060 on the journal. In other words .0991. If you don't have a mic with a radius face anvil use a ball bearing and subtract it's diameter from your reading to get the bearing size. Those rods with the large offset will not work turned 180 ,top end will hit the piston boss. If the rods big end has been resized check that it is thecorrect size,if they haven't check to see if they are out of round ,not likely on just the 3.Where are the bearings from/made?

 

ok i can try the plastiguage on the side. the bearings are .060 on all cylinders. the boxs are marked that, the bearings are marked that, and i even used my cheap micrometer to they showed the same thickness. i am going to get hlep to flip this heavy mother f'er and check the top of the pistons for markings. and try to do as you say and rotate one of the pistons on the rod to see if it makes a difference. however that part might be next week as i do not have a ring compressor here. i work my 2nd job tomorrow night and leave for out of town friday. i will report back this evening with some kind of info.

 

Before pulling things apart look up inside of the piston and make sure the rod eye has clearance from the pin bosses on the rods with the issue. Do it with the rod tightened up enough that the engine locks. Wish you were here as I sure would like to trouble shoot this damm thing,I like sovling odd problems.

 

John's right. Check the clearence up inside the piston on the pin between the small end of the rod and the piston. There should be some front to back clearence, maybe not much, maybe enough to see the pin. Either way, some feeler guage should fit in there.

There also should be some clearence between the sides of the big end of the rod and the sides of the crankshaft journal. Same amount as above.

Dave.

PS. Be glad it's not a straight eight Buick. Those dudes are H e a v y!

 

yea i imagine that they are even more heavy then then this beast. i havent weighed it but fully assembled and filled with fluids they say it is somewhere between 700 an 1000 lbs. dont know if thats true, but its what i read. anyways back to the problem at hand.

there was very little to no movement in the even side of the rods, on the crank side (the odd side had a bit more movement). the small end (on the evens) seemed pushed toward one side of the piston. i could see hardley any to none of the pin, compared to odds which i could clearly see the pin on both sides of the rod end. so i pulled #4. took it apart rotated the piston, put it back together. then i went out and bought a ring compressor cause i couldnt wait. i bought the same type compressor i used the first time. the first time it worked great. last night...not so much. that little bugger fought me and didnt want to go back in. by this time there was so much, beer, sweat, swearing, and lube that i didnt know what was what. it was so bad i actually ended up breaking a GD piston ring. then the piston decided to slide in with the next hit...mother F'er. i starte pusing it in and it was bad because it was even worse. the rod was being shoved into the crank. now i know i check for the correct orientation of the rod at that time. however in my early morning writing i question if it was right or not. but i am sure it was.

it was at this point i yelled some kind of obsinity about a SBC in the trucks future. (dont tell the pickup or the engine but i didnt really mean it, if they think it might happen theyn they just might cooperate).

the pistons didnt have any kind of marking or indication of direction on the top. this was verified by me and a buddy of mine that works a custom shop in town. but figured i what the hell lets flip it anyway. just to say i tried it. so now i am still no where, but i guess i know more. i did get a pic of the top of the piston, but didnt get it uploaded. i will do that later.

now dtracy you bring up and excellent point. i have not checked the clearance on the big end of the rods. as i said in the fist paragraph there was not much, if any, movement on the big end for the evens. and there was more movement for the odds. now i have not measured or used feeler guages. looking at it it seemed fine, i never noticed anything odd. but again i was specifically looking at that. so now i am going to measure the rod bearings width and compare the odds and evens.

i just decided that i am also going to "sacrifice" one of my extra sets of odd bearings. i am going to ground off the mounting tangs. and place them in one of the evens. and torque to speck. just to see what happens. another test, another piece of information. damn i want to go do that now...

 

Regarding the pistons. They have a "T" shaped opening in one side. On my F-head that side of the piston was "turned toward the camshaft". Reading the sssembly for your engine the book says to "Insert the connecting rod in the cylinder with the oil squirt hole toward the camshaft side of the cylinder block". And on your motor, "Place the connecting rod on the piston, making sure the oil squirt hole is on the opposite side from the "T" slot in the piston." So the "T" slot on yours is turned away from the camshaft.

Regards: s_f_l

 

SFL - Look at the photos on page 1, it looks like the pistons have T-Slots on both sides.

Bryce - those tangs are to keep the bearing insert from spinning in the rod. Some old Ford flathead V-8's had floating bearings - had no tangs. I'm sorry we haven't been able to diagnose from afar the problem with that engine. I think if we could just lay hands on it all would be better. But if you are willing to sacrifice that bearing, that's not a bad idea. Sorry about the ring, sometimes an individual can be bought, most likely a set for one piston will have to be purchased.

Dave.

 

SFL - You're right, I blew up photo #11 and the old piston does have a T-slot on one side only. Now if the new ones are the same...

 

I'm still not to enthused about the rod bearing shells. That has to be a mixed set. PM sent with a couple of suppliers that may be of help..

dtracy. Just part of the fun We'll keep after it and he'll be running pretty quick

s_f_l

 

thanks everybody. i looked into a few things when i got home last night. the bearing are from the same mfg. the packing is different, the ring itself even looks a little different but they are from the same people. that being said i am still calling it a mixed set since it looks different. i ordered them from a place that specializes in only willys stuff. so i they should work. that being said...last night i sacrificed a set of the other bearing. ground the tangs down, inserted the bearings, torqued to speck (i did this all on the #6 cylinder due to #4 still being out from the 180 rotation that didn't work.) and...i could rotate the assembly.

i was so happy i about spilled my beer. then i looked down and remembered the broken rings. so this morning i am going to call the place i purchased the bearings from and see if they have the even side that completely matches the odds. i know they are good people. so they will make it right if they can. if they cant find a good set then i will call the suppliers that mr loft pm'ed me. thanks by the way. and on the way home i am going by the machine shop to order a set of rings.

i have 20 days till greaserama here in kc. i would love to make it to that show. we shall see if i can get it done. however i am still holding my breath a little bit. i will continue complete enthusiasm until i have 3 new sets of bearing for the even side that let the crank rotate.

 

OK SO IT been a long time now...i did not make greaserama. the engine is still out...however i have rotation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i found a set of bearing for the even side. using a set of calipers all three differnet sets seemd to be the same to me. these was manual calipers, maybe a digital set would have been better. but anyways it works!!!!!!!!!!!! so now i have to finish assembling the block, get the fire wall finsihed. i got a differnt seat i need to do moutns for. and then i should be able to drive this thing. stay tuned for further updat4es and a youtube video of this thing runnin sometime in the future. oh and paint. im gona paint the motor, tranny, xfer, and inside of the doghouse. at least a temp coat until i have the time and money to blow the entire thing apart. my plan is to get this back on the road. and get my cj5 on the road and completely together before i tear the pickup apart for a complete rebuild.

by the way i apologize for the spelling as i suck at at it and i have been drinking the best pumpkin beer i have ever had....

i want to thank everyone for all of the advise/support you have given me. johnevens. your partnumbers have have lead me in the right right direction. i still may contact you with other questions as i continue on my quest. pending that is ok with you...

 

Yeah Auggie I was wondering how you were coming on that thing!! Glad to to hear things are going forward. My advise is always worth what you pay NOTHING !!

 

Well engine is finally sitting in place.